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professordeb
11-20-2011, 11:13 PM
I am going to stop banging my head against the wall so it will stop hurting.

Proustable
11-20-2011, 11:20 PM
I'm a Chan uber and I'm at the point where I want him to lose undeservingly just so this will stop.

aftershocks
11-21-2011, 01:44 AM
I'm a Chan uber and I'm at the point where I want him to lose undeservingly just so this will stop.

I hear ya Proustable (even tho' you didn't really say what the "this" is you want to stop: criticism, fantasizing, head-banging and hand-wringing by fans either for or against Chan-love; Hersh writing about fs; OR judges blindly rewarding PChiddy?) The state of affairs is pretty bad when you have fs fans and even ubers of a highly regarded top skater getting to the point where they seriously are rooting for the guy to lose whether he deserves to or not. And at this point, how can anyone tell when, whether or what Chan deserves. I think Patrick may be as confused as we are. :confused: And who knows how this all affects his competitors. LOL at Patrick's coach having to tell him in the kiss 'n cry at TEB to, "Wave to those girls over there." Now that's bad.

Does the ISU care about any of this? I think NOT. They are going to ride PChiddy all the way to Canada Worlds, Sochi Olympics and beyond, if they have their way -- and who says they can't. (DAI, JEREMY, Puhleeze!!!)



I am going to stop banging my head against the wall so it will stop hurting.

^^May be a good idea, professordeb (unless you want to try banging ... errrm :shuffle:, rapping the judges knuckles, or shaking some sense into them), 'cause banging one's head against a wall usually only makes one end up with a ginormous headache.

I was even pondering trying to come up with my own fs judging system -- another fantasy, of course, but what the hay, it might be a heck of a lot more fun and less boring than watching most of the performances that went down at TEB in all the events. Was it something in the water, or just a delayed/ mid-season outbreak of IJS malaise??? So sad that many of the skates didn’t live up to the beauty of the locale.



Nobody is unbeatable.
We will just have to stay tuned...

Are you sure, Sparks? Might you have meant, "Nobody is unbeatable, unless said personage is Patrick Chan himself."

To me it's kinda frightening to realize that Dai (even if he skates the same as at NHK, w/ or w/o a perfect quad) maybe has a chance to gain enough IJS points to beat Chan (and that is the case even with PC being spotted at least a couple of falls on footwork and a fall apiece on several jumps: quad, 3-axel, loop -- take your pick judges). I know Dai's marks at NHK were quite high, crazily so (259 overall), even Dai was dumbstruck, but then Chan has scored higher (280) when he skated fairly clean at Worlds 2011 (such a rarity). That's a 21-point spread, and Dai was practically perfect at NHK -- he made me forget that he fell on the opening quad attempt, he was so captivating to watch. I won't say that Dai was "enchanting," as there is nothing reminiscent of "Chan" in Dai's repertoire, thank the skate gods!

A perfect Jeremy, even with his Muse Redemption, superb artistry and difficult transitions galore, doesn't even factor into the equation (despite meriting inclusion into contention for gold) at the rate Chan is being scored w/ multiple errors (forget w/o since it happens so rarely). This is figure skating, folks. I’m only waiting for the term “Chanflation” to make it into dictionaries.

overedge
11-21-2011, 01:56 AM
Are you sure, Sparks? Might you have meant, "Nobody is unbeatable, unless said personage is Patrick Chan himself."



I think if Sparks had meant that, Sparks would have said that.

Sparks
11-21-2011, 01:59 AM
I think if Sparks had meant that, Sparks would have said that.

Yes, Sparks would. :P

judgejudy27
11-21-2011, 02:05 AM
Chan even deserves so much better than this, in addition to the sport. The way things are going now he could win every event for the next 7 years and when he retires he will only be remembered as the guy who was so overscored and won so many events even with tons of falls which no other skater in history was allowed to. If he retired today that is all he would be remembered for to most people, and not his excellent skating skills, footwork, and other fine points (just not the all time best in every aspect of skating as the crackhead judges clearly view him as at the moment). That is unless he starts doing more clean or cleanish performances like he did late last season, or the judges cut out the excessively inflated scores of Chan of the last season and half.

aftershocks
11-21-2011, 02:22 AM
Ah, Sparks, I trust you at your word! We can only hope, if hoping is still possible. Maybe in our dreams and fantasies perhaps.

Would be nice to see skaters scored according to how they perform on the ice... but yeah we are talking about figure skating Co-opted by IJS, circa 2011. Hey, but who knows... it ain't over till the fat ... I mean till the Chan skates. Oh, but I forget, it's usually over before Chan skates these days.

I actually watched Chan at TEB in the fp hoping to see what the judges are seeing, and at the least rooting a little for Chan to skate a clean skate (he started out fine), as we all have been told 50 million times Chan's SS speak for themselves. But, no, Patrick falls several times out of nowhere seemingly. Well, maybe we can just blame the venue in this instance. By now though, it has become so mundane, "Chan falls several times and wins big." IJS puts enough pressure on skaters ... without the pressure to skate clean with a quad to just hope to be in the running for silver or bronze.

Proustable
11-21-2011, 02:55 AM
I hear ya Proustable (even tho' you didn't really say what the "this" is you want to stop: criticism, fantasizing, head-banging and hand-wringing by fans either for or against Chan-love; Hersh writing about fs; OR judges blindly rewarding PChiddy?) The state of affairs is pretty bad when you have fs fans and even ubers of a highly regarded top skater getting to the point where they seriously are rooting for the guy to lose whether he deserves to or not. And at this point, how can anyone tell when, whether or what Chan deserves. I think Patrick may be as confused as we are. :confused: And who knows how this all affects his competitors. LOL at Patrick's coach having to tell him in the kiss 'n cry at TEB to, "Wave to those girls over there." Now that's bad..

All of the above?

1. Actually, I'm fine with the criticism. Constructive criticism helps one grow. I think Chan should listen to the constructive criticism, whether or not he uses it. There are certainly things Chan can do to improve....

2. ... which is unlikely if the judges keep saying he's close to perfect on everything already. As you say, the judges aren't doing him any favours by scoring him so high. And at TEB.... no, sorry. I can't imagine him scoring above eights in anything except maybe SS, and even then - you could tell he was sick - everything seemed more laboured.

3. And that's the problem. I believe that figure skating scoring is 70% technical, 30% artistic, and I think that's fair. But I believe that both sides can and should vary. I know Chan has phenomenal-arguably-best-in-the-world edge work/skating skills. But if he doesn't demonstrate that on the ice, then he hasn't.

4. Figure skating fans will always bitch. If the internet was around, I'm sure Dick Button and the Protopopov's would have detractors in their day. And during the heyday of the Soviet Union? Forget about it. That won't stop.

5. I'm fine with the 21 point spread between Chan last season and Dai this season. Three quads and two triple axels (one step out, no downgrades/urs) should be scored higher than no quads and three triple axels and three urs, especially when everything is as good as it was for Chan at Worlds.

6. But more than that, I want the judges to prove judgejudy wrong.

PDilemma
11-21-2011, 03:14 AM
I don't find anything about his interpretation that great. It's all very labored, very "and now I put my arms above my head and now it's time to take them down" looking. His spins are centered, but really slow. And I hate to say this or someone will pop up to tell me how ignorant I am, but I really don't understand how someone with the greatest skating skills in the history of the known universe (tm) constantly randomly stumbles on non-jump elements. You can only blame that on the ice so many times. At some point, it has to be conceded that he loses control of his blades.

(And never mind the falling on jumps---something that is rarely made up for in points for other skaters).

aftershocks
11-21-2011, 03:19 AM
Again, I hear ya Proustable. Chan should try harder to live up to his fans' stalwart belief in him, and to the judges' blind pandering.

Hey, but sorry, I can't accept 21-point spreads .... soooo ridiculous for anyone! Carruthers thinks the Sandhu/ barstool spin looks ridiculous, pffft, that's nothing compared to the IJS scoring system. Mon dieu! Beaucoup haute! Quelle ridicule! :drama: Pardon mon Francaise!

ETA: PDilemma to the rescue. Thank you! thank you! I thought I was in the minority here. Chan's arm movements especially are lacking in grace ... his moves (meant to be "artistic") and his expressions are so studied.


...

(And never mind the falling on jumps---something that is rarely made up for in points for other skaters).

You can say that again! But I guess the judges will say it again anyway with their scoring regardless.

PDilemma
11-21-2011, 03:25 AM
Chan should try harder to live up to his fans' stalwart belief in him, and to the judges' blind pandering.


Why would he bother to work any harder, though? If he can stumble around like he did at TEB and the fans declare him amazing and fantastic and perfect and the judges give him the win by a huge margin, what motivation to improve anything could he possibly come up with? His fans should actually worry, because complacency could easily creep up on him. And it is not out of the realm of possibility that on the enormous stage of Sochi, judges will get the notion that the IOC and the world won't take inflated scores the way the much smaller audience of skating fans do during the years in-between and he could find himself hurt badly by his mistakes.

Proustable
11-21-2011, 03:38 AM
I could point out why and where I disagree vis-a-vis interpretation, but that's besides the point. I wouldn't worry too much about complacency, particularly with the mistakes. I'm more concerned he doesn't grow in the areas I believe he can.

aftershocks
11-21-2011, 03:38 AM
Why would he bother to work any harder, though? If he can stumble around like he did at TEB and the fans declare him amazing and fantastic and perfect and the judges give him the win by a huge margin, what motivation to improve anything could he possibly come up with? ...

:respec: :respec: Exactement! That's why I said in an earlier post that the judges' scoring does neither Chan nor the sport any favors.

I was trying to be at least a little polite in my response to Proustable, one of Chan's more thoughtful fans.

ETA:

... I'm more concerned he doesn't grow in the areas I believe he can.

Yep, what incentive does he have to grow when he's been repeatedly told he's the second coming?

Rafter
11-21-2011, 03:42 AM
I don't find anything about his interpretation that great. It's all very labored, very "and now I put my arms above my head and now it's time to take them down" looking. His spins are centered, but really slow.


I don't find Chan's skating laboured at all and I think his arm movements in this program look very organic and natural for him. There are times in this program with certain moves that he's doing in footwork or the way his posture is that he he looks like a stage dancer to me. I also wouldn't call Chan's spins "really slow". They are for sure not Czisny-fast, but they are decently fast. The one who has "really slow" spins is Takahashi.

PDilemma
11-21-2011, 03:43 AM
I wouldn't worry too much about complacency, particularly with the mistakes. I'm more concerned he doesn't grow in the areas I believe he can.

The scores he is getting with the mistakes is precisely what will keep him from growing, though. He's not going to feel any need to try to grow in any area.