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RD
11-10-2011, 03:03 AM
The current us ladies may not be rock stars, but the [lack] of support for them is concurrent with a lack of interest in skating in general.

Yes...but the reason for that lack of interest in the first place? It's a vicious cycle. But like I mentioned above, it's likely complex and it's not JUST because we have been awful in ladies lately, or because the scoring system changed. But I'm willing to bet they have contributed to the situation...

berthesghost
11-10-2011, 03:03 AM
Funny to think of kimmie as the only us world champ under cop.

Rafter
11-10-2011, 03:06 AM
OK, I've counted crossovers as best I could.

Takahashi: 4 forward CCW, 13 backward CW, 1 backward CCW, total 18

Chan: 11 forward CCW, 2 forward CW, 2 backward CCW, 14 backward CW, total 28

You're correct, Chan did more crossovers.


I think most of Chan's crossovers come in the first 30-45 seconds of the program setting up the quad jumps and 3axel. I counted approx 15 crossovers by the end of those three jumps.

If we're going to be nit-picky Chan VS. Takahashi, I can say live that Chan has a lot more speed and flow plus better ice coverage that Takahashi. That was my impression at Skate Canada at least. I also thought Chan's circular footwork pattern was much larger than Takahashi's and flowed a lot better.

Triple Butz
11-10-2011, 05:31 PM
Entire Post.

Will you marry me?:swoon:

Triple Butz
11-10-2011, 05:36 PM
If I want to see the "performance" aspect of skating- well, that's what shows are for, right?

No, Olympic sports have always been meant to be a form of entertainment, which is why they were held in huge venues like the Hippodrome. They also showcased poets and artists. If the "performance" aspect, which has been central to this and any Olympic sport since the beginning, doesn't matter then why not have skaters record their performances at their home rinks and just mail them to the judges? :blah:

kwanfan1818
11-10-2011, 06:53 PM
If we're going to be nit-picky Chan VS. Takahashi, I can say live that Chan has a lot more speed and flow plus better ice coverage that Takahashi. That was my impression at Skate Canada at least. I also thought Chan's circular footwork pattern was much larger than Takahashi's and flowed a lot better.

The only one of the transitions criteria that this would impact is "Quality":



• Variety
• Difficulty
• Intricacy
• Quality

The first three criteria only speak to content and completed attempts.

Speed and flow would, among other things, be enabled by


Skating Skills:
• Balance and rhythmic knee action and precision
• Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps and turns
• Power/energy and acceleration

be rewarded directly in


Skating skills
• Flow and effortless glide

and could, but not necessarily would impact content selection and ability to interpret:


Choreography
• Pattern and ice coverage
• Phrasing and form (movements and parts structured to match the phrasing of the music)

Interpretation:
• Effortless movement in time to the music (timing)
• Expression of the music’s style, character and rhythm
• Use of finesse to reflect the nuances of the music

However, because any time the bullet points are put under a general category, and especially if there is a mixture of content and execution in the same component, the judges are free to balance them any way they want for the final score.

To answer the original question, which is how Chan could have higher TR than Takahashi, one way would be to take gkelly's breakdown of the content bullet points, and to value speed, power, and the impact of speed on flow throughout the transitions more highly in Chan's performance than in Takahashi's.

For example, Stephane Lambiel's FW in his Olympic FS had wonderful flow, but it was slow, especially the SL FW. Takahashi's flow is softer than Chan's and he hasn't been as fast in the last few years in which I've seen them compete head-to-head.

Of course, neither speed nor flow guarantees


Skating Skills
• Mastery of multi directional skating
• Mastery of one foot skating

which is equally content- and execution-based

As far as utilizing the ice surface, per the Technical Panel handbook for Singles, there is a requirement to use the entire width of the ice, but this doesn't address the size of the circle (or oval) at the lengths, and the criteria for determining whether the correct amount of ice surface is used is much less relevant to Senior-level skating. ("However the step sequence must fully utilize the ice surface. Step sequences too short and barely visible cannot be considered as meeting the requirements of a step sequence.")

Failure to use the width is supposed to result in no value for a choreo step sequence:


A skater completes a circle using the width of the ice surface.
A Step Sequence will only receive a Level if at least 50% of the sequence pattern is performed. The choreographic step sequence will receive no value if it definitely does not fully utilize the ice surface.

There are no +GOE bullets or -GOE deductions listed in 1611 and 1672, which address GOE that refer to the size of the ice pattern: in the official docs, this seems to be binary, i.e., either your pattern is acceptable or it's not.

I would love to see components that reflect my values are more objective and less confusing that:

1. Separate content from execution
2. Give levels of difficulty to Transitions, Composition, and Concept based entirely on content and adds in how much one-footed and multi-directional skating there was in the program to Composition (leaving execution to Skating Skills), to be assigned to a Content controller/team
3. Have the judges, whether they be the same panel or a split panel, give the PCS scores separate from the difficulty of the program.

Skating Skills: (as written)
Transitions: Quality of execution
Execution: Posture/carriage, leg-line, turnout, finish, clarity of movement, maintaining speed and flow between elements, upper body control, controlled use of arms and hands, smoothness of direction changes
Interpretation: Musicality, phrasing emphasis, finesse, movement reflects musical style and ups and downs, rhythm, timing, expression of style
Performance (weighted lower): Connection to audience, projection, execution of concept

Composition would included variety, intricacy, and difficulty of the ice pattern and coverage, use of both directions, hitting the musical highlights, equal weight of the parts.

Concept would address purpose, idea, originality. (I would tend to weight this lower, since it and Performance are the most subjective areas.) It would also address whether it's reflected throughout the program, or just a nod to the music at the beginning and where the skater slows down.

The math could be done to add the combined, factored levels and multiply by the scores, with a factor to give the ISU the balance of GOE to PCS that they want. It could be an equation that could be done on paper, and wouldn't need a computer.

gkelly
11-10-2011, 07:58 PM
I would love to see components that reflect my values are more objective and less confusing that:

1. Separate content from execution
2. Give levels of difficulty to Transitions, Composition, and Concept based entirely on content and adds in how much one-footed and multi-directional skating there was in the program to Composition (leaving execution to Skating Skills), to be assigned to a Content controller/team

This is an interesting suggestion. I'm curious what the rules for assigning levels of difficulty would look like. Care to take a stab at it?

Even if the scores aren't separated into separate panels evaluating difficulty and execution the way you would like, an outline of how to assign difficulty values might be useful to judges trying to come up with numbers under the current scoring breakdown.

berthesghost
11-11-2011, 01:30 PM
On the bright side, however (and I think this is what many people neglect to mention), the expanded methods of consumption available today as opposed to 10, 20 yrs ago have allowed for coverage of more skaters, and more skatING, than ever before. Yes, you might have to shell out some $$ and watch it on a computer screen, but at least you are no longer restricted to what the TV network chooses to show. I think it's a great time for skatefans, actually.just wanted to add that the $15 I spent on the premium online gp footage on universal sport I could have just as easily burnt in an ashtray. It pretty much never works! :lol:
I know I've been reading posters complain about ice network for years.

kwanfan1818
11-20-2011, 05:05 AM
This is an interesting suggestion. I'm curious what the rules for assigning levels of difficulty would look like. Care to take a stab at it?

Even if the scores aren't separated into separate panels evaluating difficulty and execution the way you would like, an outline of how to assign difficulty values might be useful to judges trying to come up with numbers under the current scoring breakdown.
I didn't mean to let this slide, but made a list offline, and then I kept looking in the wrong threads. These are high-level thoughts for singles.

I think that levels should be based on bullet points, like they are for elements. For composition for example, taking into account difficulty, variety, and intricacy, would look at things like:

*Tempo: speed
*Tempo changes
*Musical character: The more precision required to match the movement to the music, the higher the level.
*Ice coverage: the more coverage, the higher the level.
*Placement of the elements on the ice. Mixing up the placement would be a feature.
*Order of the elements: Front-loading gets a lower level than more even distribution. Jumps right after spins without much time or distance would be considered more difficult.
*Skating in both directions, as opposed to a single or habitual direction, would get higher levels, as would approaching elements from a harder direction (based on the skater's habitual direction)
*Upper body movement: similar to footwork, where the riskier the movement, the higher the level
*Balance of content: distribution of the type of elements

For concept, bullet points would be based on the strength and clarity of the concept and for how much of the program:

*The music fits the concept
*The movement fits the concept. A program where there is movement that fits the character throughout the program, and especially when moving, gets a higher level than a program where the character is at the beginning and in complete stops. Extraneous flailing, for example, does not.

I would add costume, but I wonder how fair that would be at all levels, considering the great range of financial resources. I'd want concept to be separate from composition, because I think concept is more subjective, while composition can be codified, even if not everyone agrees on the relative difficulty of various aspects of it.

rhumba
11-20-2011, 07:20 AM
I am not a judge, not sure how they scored the skaters. However, I was totally mesmerized when I watched Takahashi (LIVE) at NHK, particularly his short program, his footwork, his beautiful jumps, the whole package. He's the best, artistcally. I almost fell asleep when I watched Chan at TEB. I've never seen anybody skate the way Takahashi does (maybe Stephan...).

aftershocks
11-20-2011, 10:45 PM
^^ ITA!
I don't think the judges are doing Patrick Chan or the sport any favors by continuing to rate him so highly when he continues to make so many mistakes. Maybe he'll work it out by Nationals and Worlds -- but what's up with his skating, and the high scores for blah? And pls, no blather about his superior ss, more like zzzz when you put it altogether with boring mistake-filled skates.

Even tho' Nan Song wasn't as great in his fp at TEB as he was at CoC, at least he stayed on his feet (and so did Brezina and Rippon, despite their jump errors). Song needs help with choreo and presentation, but I would have rewarded Song the gold at TEB, partly to give Chan a wake-up call. Put Chan in second or third for a change, when he doesn't skate clean. Jeez. (Yes, I know the other competitors must step-up as well. Song, Brezina, and Rippon were skating a bit tentatively). They all should have been like Ross Miner at NHK -- relax and go for broke. It just might win you a medal, and the color might have been gold for Song. Even Adam might have edged Brezina for bronze had he skated to his full potential. And Brezina could have edged Song, if he'd skated to his full potential. Yes, I know, PChiddy was solidly in gold position before the event began, so I should stop ranting and fantasizing.

judgejudy27
11-20-2011, 10:49 PM
It already became evident last season Chan is a lock to win every event until 2018, or until he retires, whichever comes first, as long as he doesnt fall more than 7 times. Also reality he will always get the highest scores for everything, even things he is not close to being the best in, +3 in GOE for smallish rather ordinary landed jumps, +3 in GOE for spins that fall well short of Lambiel in his prime, 9s for interpretation and performance which are inferior to several of his competitors, and so forth. I have accepted the reality and as such tuned out the boring mens event in favor of the other 3 disciplines until Chan retires. Better things to do with my time than watch the splatty coronation show featuring the most overscored skater in hsitory. Others apparently feel the same way too as the dieing TV ratings and the sport almost going extinct to North American audiences shows, but hey if that is what the ISU wants then go right ahead, mantaining Chans 7 fall cushion does wonders to keep accelerating the process.

aftershocks
11-20-2011, 10:59 PM
OMG, ITA with you judgejudy27, surprisingly. Except, I do hold out hope for Dai and Jeremy. :saint:

Maybe I'm fantasizing again, but my dream Worlds podium: Dai, Jeremy, Brezina or Kozuka, with the Chid-factor in fourth. What a dream! Well, my way of tuning out will just be pulling for the skaters who have programs that transport us and transcend figure skating -- such amazing skates happen so rarely these days.

Beefcake
11-20-2011, 11:04 PM
Kills me to agree with jj, too, aftershocks. But, yes, it's depressing that a skater can be seen as this prescious, supreme creature whose failure to complete elements will be absorbed time and again with ridiculous PCS and GOEs.

This crap is driving me from the sport, and to wit is also turning the "sport" into less of a sport.

In totally urelated news, I think that it's just plain rude that Patrick Chan refuses to open the sushi gift baskets that I've been sending him on the road.

Sparks
11-20-2011, 11:09 PM
Nobody is unbeatable.
We will just have to stay tuned...