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kina
12-12-2011, 03:03 AM
Here's a London Free Press article that has a slightly different angle in terms of Scott's comments.

http://www.lfpress.com/sports/2011/12/11/19109286.html

wow. that comes across much differently.

Proustable
12-12-2011, 03:06 AM
Okay

When someone wishes for bad karma and uses derogatory insults instead of names against D/W, that's juvenile, immature and yes, full of bile.

When someone dominates the posts repeating the same thing over and over again such that a wall of noise is created that My Bloody Valentine would be cowering in the corner... thats bilious.

I consider myself a V/M uber. If D/W start dominating, and the way D/W do everything becomes the way ice dance is headed, I'll stop watching because what they do isn't interesting to me - it's good music and surface level emotion with terrific speed and some gorgeous elements. It's doesn't draw me in the way that V/M do, or C/L, or the way that other great teams have in the past.

I don't see that as a double standard. But frankly, when I come into the V/M thread, I'd like to read news on V/M, thoughts on their programs and the like. Not how much D/W happen to suck on that day.

flowerpower
12-12-2011, 03:09 AM
You know, given the level of bile that has been hurled at D/W in this thread, I really don't think calling D/W-ubers out on their response to Scott's comment makes us look any better, even if I don't agree with said response.

Generally speaking, I don't perceive that bile has been hurled here - maybe by one or two people, that's it.

I also remember all too well the D/W uber who used to come here and suggest that Tessa's compartment syndrome was exaggerated, etc., etc. No thread, or team, or ubers have the high ground.

OlieRow
12-12-2011, 03:14 AM
When someone wishes for bad karma and uses derogatory insults instead of names against D/W, that's juvenile, immature and yes, full of bile.

When someone dominates the posts repeating the same thing over and over again such that a wall of noise is created that My Bloody Valentine would be cowering in the corner... thats bilious.

What you mention has been said by 2-3 posters but unfortunately, they're some of the most vocal. I'd say an overwhelming majority of the posters in this thread have stated they don't want to be associated with that kind of attitude or have it be the overwhelming theme in this thead.

Golightly
12-12-2011, 03:17 AM
Here's yet another article: http://www.thestar.com/article/1100389--dimanno-virtue-and-moir-steaming-over-ice-dance-silver. But you know how DiManno loves her theatrics so...

I have to admit the part about Tessa's lovely green eyes widening to saucer size made me laugh.

flowerpower
12-12-2011, 03:20 AM
So what is considered hurling bile? I can understand that people might have an issue with the comments of one or two folks. Those folks can be very blunt to say the least. :lol:

However I agree in general with those comments if not the harshness of them. Is not agreeing that D&W are the second coming considered "hurling bile?"

Ever since the start of the 09/10 season there has been some sort of weird aura surrounding D&W and their biggest supporters. It feels like some sort of hands off policy when it comes to discussing them. Interesting that the same policy isn't used when speaking of other teams. As someone who over the years has liked/loved some of the most unpopular teams in icedance (C&S, L&A, K&O, B&A, DomShabs etc.) it would have been nice to see the same courtesy extended to those teams that is expected when speaking of D&W. I see a double standard.

While some do love both V&M and D&W, many like one or the other and that is normal. As long as I have been lurking then posting here people have had favorites and those who were not so favorite and no one was ever criticized for not liking this or that team. The opinions may have been debated and accepted/rejected but that is different than attacking posters. Many D&W fans don't like V&M and in the past didn't care for other teams as well. While we may have discussed why someone feels this way or that I can't remember any fans of DelShoes, DenStavs or V&M criticizing people specifically for not being a V&M fan.

Yet, when some here (myself included) voice that we aren't really seeing the same genius in D&W that others do we get told to stop. D&W and V&M are good friends and we should like D&W as well as V&M. It almost seems like a package deal. For a little while Canton was comparable to the popular clique of kids in high school.

For the record I don't hate D&W as people (don't know anything about them off ice), but as competitors I feel they've been overrated to some degree since the last Olympic season. My feelings have nothing to do with them overtaking teams who were and are my favorites. Ever since D&W entered the senior ranks I've yet to be wowed by them. I even said so at the time.

As always D&W's are a fine technical team with good speed and except for a few standout programs, I feel that overall they are the same team they were back in 2007. I wish I could love them but just don't see the extreme difficulty that is supposedly making the judges hand out the exaggerated marks. I get what the judges are doing though I don't agree but I'm not sure what others who are not judges are seeing and apparently I find myself in good company. Many skaters and commentators who aren't American (or Canadian) only reinforce what I feel I'm actually seeing on the ice rather than what the judges are trying to make us think we are seeing.

Scott has always felt that he and Tessa were the best team in the world. He said it back in 2009 after worlds and a couple of times after. I've been wondering what he felt about the marks. Of course perhaps his comments were said in the heat of the moment.

I need to stop because nastiness that is sometimes present is unfortunate but I do have one last comment.

D&W and their fans haven't really had to be gracious in defeat because while they might have missed the podium in 2009, starting with the last Olympic season they have won at least one segment of every major competition if they weren't winning overall. The judges have basic "told" them every season that they are the best in the world even when the skating isn't perfect. D&W have been scoring highter even in components marks than V&M. It's easy to be "gracious" when you really don't know as of yet what it's like to be outpointed or held beneath skaters who aren't better than you are.

Anyway, V&M's FD mark makes me feel as if there is at least some hope that V&M might be given a fair shot at another world title. I'd love it if those of us who feel the judges have officially annointed D&W were proven wrong. I will be more than happy to say I was wrong.

This!

bbkenn
12-12-2011, 03:22 AM
So what is considered hurling bile? I can understand that people might have an issue with the comments of one or two folks. Those folks can be very blunt to say the least. :lol:

However I agree in general with those comments if not the harshness of them. Is not agreeing that D&W are the second coming considered "hurling bile?"


For the record I don't hate D&W as people (don't know anything about them off ice), but as competitors I feel they've been overrated to some degree since the last Olympic season. My feelings have nothing to do with them overtaking teams who were and are my favorites. Ever since D&W entered the senior ranks I've yet to be wowed by them. I even said so at the time.

As always D&W's are a fine technical team with good speed and except for a few standout programs, I feel that overall they are the same team they were back in 2007. I wish I could love them but just don't see the extreme difficulty that is supposedly making the judges hand out the exaggerated marks. I get what the judges are doing though I don't agree but I'm not sure what others who are not judges are seeing and apparently I find myself in good company. Many skaters and commentators who aren't American (or Canadian) only reinforce what I feel I'm actually seeing on the ice rather than what the judges are trying to make us think we are seeing.

Scott has always felt that he and Tessa were the best team in the world. He said it back in 2009 after worlds and a couple of times after. I've been wondering what he felt about the marks. Of course perhaps his comments were said in the heat of the moment.

I need to stop because nastiness that is sometimes present is unfortunate but I do have one last comment.

D&W and their fans haven't really had to be gracious in defeat because while they might have missed the podium in 2009, starting with the last Olympic season they have won at least one segment of every major competition if they weren't winning overall. The judges have basic "told" them every season that they are the best in the world even when the skating isn't perfect. D&W have been scoring highter even in components marks than V&M. It's easy to be "gracious" when you really don't know as of yet what it's like to be outpointed or held beneath skaters who aren't better than you are.

Anyway, V&M's FD mark makes me feel as if there is at least some hope that V&M might be given a fair shot at another world title. I'd love it if those of us who feel the judges have officially annointed D&W were proven wrong. I will be more than happy to say I was wrong.

I totally agree with you. I try to be as civil as possible when I disagree, but it bothers me that if you don't care for D&W as much, and say so, you are a V&M uber and post bile.

"Scott has always felt that he and Tessa were the best team in the world. He said it back in 2009 after worlds and a couple of times after. I've been wondering what he felt about the marks. Of course perhaps his comments were said in the heat of the moment."


I think this is a bit of a wakeup call for Scott.

Carmen Ovsiannikov
12-12-2011, 03:33 AM
Okay

When someone wishes for bad karma and uses derogatory insults instead of names against D/W, that's juvenile, immature and yes, full of bile.

When someone dominates the posts repeating the same thing over and over again such that a wall of noise is created that My Bloody Valentine would be cowering in the corner... thats bilious.


I don't see that as a double standard. But frankly, when I come into the V/M thread, I'd like to read news on V/M, thoughts on their programs and the like. Not how much D/W happen to suck on that day.

I get that and agree. It also only serves to give credence the opinions of some of the D&W fans that some of us who don't like both teams are just bitter. I can see that.

However, while this is a V&M thread the fact that V&M's direct competitors are D&W and that it is D&W's marks (marks that some of us feel are unjustified) that affect V&M's placements unfortunately mean that D&W are going to be discussed. In particular the parts of D&W's skating that some of us feel are being overmarked will inevitably be discussed.

If P&B were in the position that D&W are in and people felt they were being unfairly held up then they would be the team being discussed. It's nothing personal against D&W. Whomever had ended up being V&M's rivals would be given the same scrutiny.

People also discuss and may agree or disagree with the battle for the bronze but I don't see nearly as many people getting upset and not wanting any discussion on whether the main contenders for that medal deserve their placements. That was also what I meant by double standard.

A few weeks ago, someone started an I&K thread debating their current skills and what the future may hold (including any possible medal in Sochi). Some of us love I&K and explained why we think they have potential while others see nothing. Yet there was nowhere near the drama that ensues when D&W are critiqued.

Actually, the double standard comment wasn't aimed directly at you but I do feel that it exists. I hate to bring up B&A as I have been accused of not liking D&W because I'm bitter over B&A's 09/10 season. But in this case I feel they are a great example of what I mean.

Some of the same D&W fans who have an issue with some of the comments on this thread have engaged in the same sort of behavior themselves. There was no thread in which B&A were mentioned that didn't turn into an attack on how unworthy B&A (particularly Tanith) were as skaters. Many of the attacks also became quite personal (particularly in thread discussing the article about Tanith's weight issue). The same comments were thrown into every dance thread. Even a couple of the earlier versions of the D&W and V&M threads included some cheap shots.

Back in 2003 after L&A didn't defend the world title and Ilya made comments voicing his displeasure, the L&A cheer thread was also peppered with insults from non fans. This had gone on with other teams as well.

I do think threads that are supposedly marked as fan threads should remain just that.

I feel that we all have the right to express why we like or don't like certain skaters as long as it's done in an adult way but I never have understood why someone who isn't a fan would go into a thread meant to cheer on a team they don't like just to trash that skater. I haven't been in the D&W thread since the 09/10 and won't go there since that thread as I understand it is for D&W's fans who may or may not like V&M as well.

But in a general thread I don't see why we shouldn't be able to breakdown competition scores even if we don't agree with the final result.

Rafter
12-12-2011, 03:40 AM
Good post, Carmen!

I've been thinking about certain people and D&W ubers being in an uproar over Scott's comments, particularly his one about feeling they are the best artistic team over the last several years and I really don't see anything wrong with him saying that.

I mean, isn't it his RIGHT to feel that he and Tessa have been? I'm sure B&A thought they were, and D&W think they are, and DomShab thought they were, and DelSch thought they were, etc etc etc. I also think it's possible that when Scott says 'artistic' he means things like leg unison, extension, body line, posture, musicality, skating as one, etc etc. Can't say I disagree with him.

marbri
12-12-2011, 03:44 AM
Can anyone tell me what "it's bulletin board material now" means. Not important but just curious as I haven't heard that expression before.

Proustable
12-12-2011, 03:53 AM
Like a reminder of what they didn't get, and every day will walk by and see, I think.

Carmen, I think that's fair. And if we didn't have the trolls-as-ubers, I'd be totally silent right now. We do, and it becomes frustrating.

sap5
12-12-2011, 03:54 AM
Can anyone tell me what "it's bulletin board material now" means. Not important but just curious as I haven't heard that expression before.

It's a priority.

flowerpower
12-12-2011, 03:55 AM
Can anyone tell me what "it's bulletin board material now" means. Not important but just curious as I haven't heard that expression before.

The kind of saying a coach "writes on the bulletin board" to motivate a team.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-playing-field/200806/mindgames

Golightly
12-12-2011, 03:57 AM
It also seems to me, now that we are talking about both teams, that there's this misplaced sense of vulnerability, of... "aw, poor kids" when talking about Davis and White, I don't get why. As if they were so very fragile and if you pointed out that, no, they aren't particularly great dancers, that they lack lines and unison, people would lash out at you as if you were insulting them. Every team has its strengths and weaknesses, so I don't think pointing them out is an insult. And, look, I know I'm "new" here because I never post much, but I read these boards and that happens here and pretty much everywhere I go to read about this sport. Note that I didn't say Davis and White are terrible, they are excellent skaters and, in fact, they deserve a lot of credit for accomplishing everything they have, for playing to their strengths. Does this mean the weaknesses have gone away? No, and that is my problem with them. I don't see them working to improve their chemistry or their free leg extensions or trying to dance closer together? These things should matter in a sport that considers dancing as its main purpose. Why, then, is it so frowned upon that one asks these questions?

I love soccer, for instance. I am a Real Madrid fan and I know that my team has its strengths, but I can accept that its biggest rival, Barcelona, is superior technically. Fortunately for Barcelona (and sadly for me) that reflects on the scoreboard, but that is because in soccer the result is pretty much in your hands. I respect Barcelona because the soccer they play is (again, sadly for me) incredibly aesthetic and I appreciate its beauty. That's Virtue and Moir. In soccer, aesthetics might not determine the outcome of a game; in ice dance, it must. So, where is that appreciation for the beauty of a great skate these days?

Rafter
12-12-2011, 04:02 AM
Can anyone tell me what "it's bulletin board material now" means. Not important but just curious as I haven't heard that expression before.

I had never heard that expression before either. I didn't really get what he meant by "it's a piss-off". I'm pissed off? The judges are telling us to piss off? Another expression I've never heard before.