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flowerpower
12-12-2011, 01:54 AM
During the EX coverage before V&M's names were announced you can see Tessa saying to Scott "I don't want to tell anybody else" and he responds with a shrug. Wonder what that was about.?

Hmm..I watched the bold coverage and I couldn't tell what Tessa was saying. Scott seemed to be agreeing with or acknowledging whatever she said, but that's about all I could tell.

marbri
12-12-2011, 01:56 AM
You should read the D&W thread on how Scott is a sore loser, and how perfect D&W are, are the better team, the better people, etc. I wish Scott had said that all in private, but he's emotional and a real person and unfortunately did not hold back. They compared how gracious D&W have been in defeat, but then they did believe that V&M were better at that time, so the disappointment, although there, is not from a surprise to lose. I think Scott has not seen what we have all seen here that D&W are clear favorites and V&M's status as Olympic Champions has been shortlived. I hope Scott gets to talk to the judges somehow and find out what the problems are so they can maybe fix them.

It's probably best not to go into that thread at the moment ;) Scott said what he said and there are always consequences in moments like these.

Proustable
12-12-2011, 01:56 AM
You should read the D&W thread on how Scott is a sore loser, and how perfect D&W are, are the better team, the better people, etc. I wish Scott had said that all in private, but he's emotional and a real person and unfortunately did not hold back. They compared how gracious D&W have been in defeat, but then they did believe that V&M were better at that time, so the disappointment, although there, is not from a surprise to lose. I think Scott has not seen what we have all seen here that D&W are clear favorites and V&M's status as Olympic Champions has been shortlived. I hope Scott gets to talk to the judges somehow and find out what the problems are so they can maybe fix them.

You know, given the level of bile that has been hurled at D/W in this thread, I really don't think calling D/W-ubers out on their response to Scott's comment makes us look any better, even if I don't agree with said response.

bbkenn
12-12-2011, 02:04 AM
You know, given the level of bile that has been hurled at D/W in this thread, I really don't think calling D/W-ubers out on their response to Scott's comment makes us look any better, even if I don't agree with said response.

I don't believe there's been the level of "bile" hurled at D&W in this thread except for a few people. It is what is being said there, and I am sad that Scott chose to say those things giving even more fuel to their smugness. I have not put down or said bad things about D&W ever, if you read through my posts; I prefer V&M, like you prefer D&W, but saying this thread is worse than the D&W because we have one more poster than you who says nasty things is overgeneralizing and lumping us all together.

I am excited for the great real rivalry now about to begin.

Proustable
12-12-2011, 02:13 AM
I don't believe there's been the level of "bile" hurled at D&W in this thread except for a few people. It is what is being said there, and I am sad that Scott chose to say those things giving even more fuel to their smugness. I have not put down or said bad things about D&W ever, if you read through my posts; I prefer V&M, like you prefer D&W, but saying this thread is worse than the D&W because we have one more poster than you who says nasty things is overgeneralizing and lumping us all together.

I am excited for the great real rivalry now about to begin.

Saying I prefer D/W to V/M is actually very wrong. And while there are only a couple posters that bother me, they post so often and so virulently, that like it or not, they taint that thread.

I'm fine with Scott's comments. I'm fine with D/W-ubers believing that means they're fans of the classier team. I don't agree with the latter and would need to know more about the former before having an opinion.

euterpe
12-12-2011, 02:13 AM
D/W were the better team at the GPF. Maybe if Scott had stayed on his feet in the SD, and if their lifts were a little more stable in the FD, the contest would have been closer and/or V/M might have won.

Scott's sour grapes remarks aren't a great example of good sportsmanship. Let's just leave it at that.

OlieRow
12-12-2011, 02:16 AM
When Tessa says this is the time to make major changes, I hope she means in coaching. :shuffle: Obviously it wouldn't be mid-season, but I'd love it if they moved to C&K after Worlds.

While I shudder to think what would happen if they went against the S/Z machine while slipping in the judge's favor to begin with, I'd like to see what a new coach could do. I think C/K are the only change that could really work based on location. Tessa's not going to leave her physio.



One change they could make in the FD would be to do 4 seperate lifts instead of three lifts with one in combo. By doing 4 seperate lifts, D&W gain more in potential +GOE than V&M do by only doing 3 lifts.

This seems so obvious. Why haven't they done that to begin with?!



I think one of V&Ms biggest problems skating against D&W this season is D&W and Marina's choice of Die Fledermaus. That is hard music to compete against.

ITA. I expect D/W to win this season based on programs alone. I think V/M should have an advantage based on their technique and skating skills to make up for it, but the judges aren't giving them that. D/W have really addressed their weaknesses and made improvements, but there's still a gap. I get that V/M like their FD, but the theme (not necessarily the way they interpret it) seems almost junior-ish.




Can you imagine what Krylova & Camerlengo would do with V&M if they skated a super classical program to something like Rach #2 or Claire de Lune or Masquerade Waltz or Swan Lake? If V&M stay until Sochi, I hope they pull out the ballet card and skate to some Russian composer to a ballet score.

SkateGods, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE let this happen. I just want to see them skate to something not choreographed by Marina.



During the EX coverage before V&M's names were announced you can see Tessa saying to Scott "I don't want to tell anybody else" and he responds with a shrug. Wonder what that was about.

I'd say I hope it's not her legs, but it's clearly because she's pregnant and doesn't want to tell anyone. ;) Although I guess it's 3 mo. too early for the off season rumors to start.



ETA: I like that Scott is a competitor who wears his emotions on his sleeve, but I'm cringing reading his comments - specifically the "piss off" part. Hopefully there's not any backlash for that.

DimaToe
12-12-2011, 02:19 AM
I'd say I hope it's not her legs, but it's clearly because she's pregnant and doesn't want to tell anyone. ;) Although I guess it's 3 mo. too early for the off season rumors to start.

Thats what I was gonna say! :rofl:

Rafter
12-12-2011, 02:30 AM
D/W were the better team at the GPF. Maybe if Scott had stayed on his feet in the SD, and if their lifts were a little more stable in the FD, the contest would have been closer and/or V/M might have won.

Scott's sour grapes remarks aren't a great example of good sportsmanship. Let's just leave it at that.

I didn't think any of V&M's lifts were unstable today in the FD. Were we watching different programs?

Also, why are you in the V&M fan thread, eutepre?

Golightly
12-12-2011, 02:35 AM
I think she said: "I don't want to drink with anybody else". No, no, wait! She said: "I think Charlie is cuter than everybody else". Darn, my brother is an expert at reading lips, maybe he can tell me. Maybe we can filter the noise and all that and finally get to hear what she said, I think it's doable.

I mean, really?

Anyway, let's not forget that today the scores were pretty much the same, when just a few days ago a lot of people thought this would be impossible. I remain optimistic. Yeah, it bugs me that finesse and artistry aren't being rewarded, but this is how I look at things: with a program that has a lot of detractors, with music that is very hard to sell, and with the mistakes, they still managed to gain on their SB, get a virtual tie in the FD, and finished five or so points behind, just like Friday. I say this is good. And if they can do this with a program that so many people seem to hate, I am sure they'll be awesome next year at Worlds. They must be scratching their heads thinking: "OK! All levels 4, that was GOOD, what else can we do?" And you know what happens when creative people like Tessa can't figure out a puzzle. They work on it until they solve it. I trust them.

Rafter
12-12-2011, 02:35 AM
While I shudder to think what would happen if they went against the S/Z machine while slipping in the judge's favor to begin with, I'd like to see what a new coach could do. I think C/K are the only change that could really work based on location. Tessa's not going to leave her physio.

This seems so obvious. Why haven't they done that to begin with?!

It's a coaching problem. If Marina and Igor were being fair, they would have V&M doing 4 lifts in order to max out GOE and TES.

And I agree with you that V&M would probably feel the wrath of Igor if they left Canton. But I still hope they do.

Rafter
12-12-2011, 02:45 AM
Here's a London Free Press article that has a slightly different angle in terms of Scott's comments.

http://www.lfpress.com/sports/2011/12/11/19109286.html


QUEBEC CITY – When he fell on his back Friday, Scott Moir rose again full of hearty laughs and good cheer.

But he wasn't so amused on Sunday after he and partner Tessa Virtue delivered what they thought was a winning Funny Face-themed free dance – and still lost the International Skating Union's Grand Prix final at the Pavillon de la Jeunesse at ExpoCite in Quebec City.

“It's a piss-off,” said the Canadian Olympic ice dance champion. “It's a bitter pill for us to have to swallow. Overall, it's not where we wanted to finish. We were pretty honest with our goals coming into this week.

“We wanted to win and it didn't happen.”

Their master plan, with Virtue healthy again this season, was to re-establish themselves as the world's dominant ice dance team at home at the only major figure skating event they haven't won.

Not this time. They'll still have to do a little navel-gazing and globe-trotting to get there.

The Canadians smashed their season's best free dance score by five-and-a-half points (112.33), but couldn't gain ground on United States training mates Meryl Davis and Charlie White, whose spirited Strauss-infused Die Fledermaus earned them a third straight title at this annual mid-season gathering of the world's top half-dozen teams.

The Americans topped Virtue and Moir by a mere five-hundredth of a point in the free skate (112.38), holding onto their five-plus point bulge from the short dance, where Moir took his unfortunate tumble.

“We bounced back in the free dance, it was our best this season, and I thought it was good enough to win,” he said, “but obviously, we're going to have to go back and look at things and try to figure out where we can pick up some more points.

Carmen Ovsiannikov
12-12-2011, 02:48 AM
So what is considered hurling bile? I can understand that people might have an issue with the comments of one or two folks. Those folks can be very blunt to say the least. :lol:

However I agree in general with those comments if not the harshness of them. Is not agreeing that D&W are the second coming considered "hurling bile?"

Ever since the start of the 09/10 season there has been some sort of weird aura surrounding D&W and their biggest supporters. It feels like some sort of hands off policy when it comes to discussing them. Interesting that the same policy isn't used when speaking of other teams. As someone who over the years has liked/loved some of the most unpopular teams in icedance (C&S, L&A, K&O, B&A, DomShabs etc.) it would have been nice to see the same courtesy extended to those teams that is expected when speaking of D&W. I see a double standard.

While some do love both V&M and D&W, many like one or the other and that is normal. As long as I have been lurking then posting here people have had favorites and those who were not so favorite and no one was ever criticized for not liking this or that team. The opinions may have been debated and accepted/rejected but that is different than attacking posters. Many D&W fans don't like V&M and in the past didn't care for other teams as well. While we may have discussed why someone feels this way or that I can't remember any fans of DelShoes, DenStavs or V&M criticizing people specifically for not being a V&M fan.

Yet, when some here (myself included) voice that we aren't really seeing the same genius in D&W that others do we get told to stop. D&W and V&M are good friends and we should like D&W as well as V&M. It almost seems like a package deal. For a little while Canton was comparable to the popular clique of kids in high school.

For the record I don't hate D&W as people (don't know anything about them off ice), but as competitors I feel they've been overrated to some degree since the last Olympic season. My feelings have nothing to do with them overtaking teams who were and are my favorites. Ever since D&W entered the senior ranks I've yet to be wowed by them. I even said so at the time.

As always D&W's are a fine technical team with good speed and except for a few standout programs, I feel that overall they are the same team they were back in 2007. I wish I could love them but just don't see the extreme difficulty that is supposedly making the judges hand out the exaggerated marks. I get what the judges are doing though I don't agree but I'm not sure what others who are not judges are seeing and apparently I find myself in good company. Many skaters and commentators who aren't American (or Canadian) only reinforce what I feel I'm actually seeing on the ice rather than what the judges are trying to make us think we are seeing.

Scott has always felt that he and Tessa were the best team in the world. He said it back in 2009 after worlds and a couple of times after. I've been wondering what he felt about the marks. Of course perhaps his comments were said in the heat of the moment.

I need to stop because nastiness that is sometimes present is unfortunate but I do have one last comment.

D&W and their fans haven't really had to be gracious in defeat because while they might have missed the podium in 2009, starting with the last Olympic season they have won at least one segment of every major competition if they weren't winning overall. The judges have basic "told" them every season that they are the best in the world even when the skating isn't perfect. D&W have been scoring highter even in components marks than V&M. It's easy to be "gracious" when you really don't know as of yet what it's like to be outpointed or held beneath skaters who aren't better than you are.

Anyway, V&M's FD mark makes me feel as if there is at least some hope that V&M might be given a fair shot at another world title. I'd love it if those of us who feel the judges have officially annointed D&W were proven wrong. I will be more than happy to say I was wrong.

alice73
12-12-2011, 02:54 AM
So what is considered hurling bile? I can understand that people might have an issue with the comments of one or two folks. Those folks can be very blunt to say the least. :lol:

However I agree in general with those comments if not the harshness of them. Is not agreeing that D&W are the second coming considered "hurling bile?"

Ever since the start of the 09/10 season there has been some sort of weird aura surrounding D&W and their biggest supporters. It feels like some sort of hands off policy when it comes to discussing them. Interesting that the same policy isn't used when speaking of other teams. As someone who over the years has liked/loved some of the most unpopular teams in icedance (C&S, L&A, K&O, B&A, DomShabs etc.) it would have been nice to see the same courtesy extended to those teams that is expected when speaking of D&W. I see a double standard.

While some do love both V&M and D&W, many like one or the other and that is normal. As long as I have been lurking then posting here people have had favorites and those who were not so favorite and no one was ever criticized for not liking this or that team. The opinions may have been debated and accepted/rejected but that is different than attacking posters. Many D&W fans don't like V&M and in the past didn't care for other teams as well. While we may have discussed why someone feels this way or that I can't remember any fans of DelShoes, DenStavs or V&M criticizing people specifically for not being a V&M fan.

Yet, when some here (myself included) voice that we aren't really seeing the same genius in D&W that others do we get told to stop. D&W and V&M are good friends and we should like D&W as well as V&M. It almost seems like a package deal. For a little while Canton was comparable to the popular clique of kids in high school.

For the record I don't hate D&W as people (don't know anything about them off ice), but as competitors I feel they've been overrated to some degree since the last Olympic season. My feelings have nothing to do with them overtaking teams who were and are my favorites. Ever since D&W entered the senior ranks I've yet to be wowed by them. I even said so at the time.

As always D&W's are a fine technical team with good speed and except for a few standout programs, I feel that overall they are the same team they were back in 2007. I wish I could love them but just don't see the extreme difficulty that is supposedly making the judges hand out the exaggerated marks. I get what the judges are doing though I don't agree but I'm not sure what others who are not judges are seeing and apparently I find myself in good company. Many skaters and commentators who aren't American (or Canadian) only reinforce what I feel I'm actually seeing on the ice rather than what the judges are trying to make us think we are seeing.

Scott has always felt that he and Tessa were the best team in the world. He said it back in 2009 after worlds and a couple of times after. I've been wondering what he felt about the marks. Of course perhaps his comments were said in the heat of the moment.

I need to stop because nastiness that is sometimes present is unfortunate but I do have one last comment.

D&W and their fans haven't really had to be gracious in defeat because while they might have missed the podium in 2009, starting with the last Olympic season they have won at least one segment of every major competition if they weren't winning overall. The judges have basic "told" them every season that they are the best in the world even when the skating isn't perfect. D&W have been scoring highter even in components marks than V&M. It's easy to be "gracious" when you really don't know as of yet what it's like to be outpointed or held beneath skaters who aren't better than you are.

Anyway, V&M's FD mark makes me feel as if there is at least some hope that V&M might be given a fair shot at another world title. I'd love it if those of us who feel the judges have officially annointed D&W were proven wrong. I will be more than happy to say I was wrong.

Great post. I agree completely.

Carmen Ovsiannikov
12-12-2011, 03:00 AM
[QUOTE=OlieRow;3401976].....
ITA. I expect D/W to win this season based on programs alone. I think V/M should have an advantage based on their technique and skating skills to make up for it, but the judges aren't giving them that. D/W have really addressed their weaknesses and made improvements, but there's still a gap. I get that V/M like their FD, but the theme (not necessarily the way they interpret it) seems almost junior-ish.

.......[/SIZE]

Maybe, I'm too old school but I'm not one of those who are taken in just by hearing a great piece of music. For me it's not just the music but how it's used.

I love "Bolero" as a piece of music but I can see past the music and can focus on the actual choreography of the program and how each skater performs to it. While I loved the programs presented by T&D and C&S, the LP's of Michelle Kwan and Alexander Abt were lacking and didn't take advantage of the music. I feel the same about D&W.

I can understand Scott's anger or frustration which perhaps manifested itself as anger. Why the heck bother with working on your skating if the key to winning it all is just go pick a huge piece of booming music that the crowd likes and just make sure you do enough to get high levels. In that respect D&W are reminding me a little bit of Surya Bonaly. Her skating skills were terrible but people found her exciting because of her jumps (even that technique was off) but three times she came within one judge of being world champion.

I just don't get icedance anymore. :confused: