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View Full Version : Virtue - Moir #12 Only Audrey and Fred this season on ice



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NorthernDancers
12-10-2011, 06:30 AM
I think everyone is WAY over-reacting here. The rivalry will continue all the way to Sochi in my opinion. Bottom line is that Scott and Tessa did not have the greatest skate today in a number of areas. Charlie and Meryl had a very good skate. 4CC is a whole new competition. So is Worlds. So is next season. And Olympic year. I still believe the judges will mark what is there on that day. That is the ONLY thing to do when there are 2 teams so amazing, and so close together. Were Meryl and Charlie over-marked a little? Perhaps. I expect Scott and Tessa will make up a little ground in the FD, but not 5 points unless Charlie and Meryl have a bad day. I don't think the judges are out to get anyone. They just judged what they saw today. Tessa and Scott are competitors at heart. I'm sure they will continue to improve throughout the season. They are just getting back into the swing of things after an unfortunate year. And they look so happy, healthy and relaxed like we haven't seen them in such a long time. When both teams skate really well, I think the edge will go to Tessa and Scott. It will not be about politics or last year's results. Meryl and Charlie are very wonderful. But Tessa and Scott are something very, very special. Once in a generation. But they will have to skate their best in order to get the marks.

Carmen Ovsiannikov
12-10-2011, 06:36 AM
my stream of consciousness...

.....i remember hearing them say in interviews that they had to mislead when it came to their first injury because if judges smell weakness, they mark for it. that's all they see. v/m had to really pretend like tessa was very healthy during the olympics. that's insulting the judges and brings up a great point now that she's had two relapses: how are judges going to react to them nowadays? does the premise that judges will mark for the weakness they know still hold true?

......today has shades of the olympic year grand prix series and we know how that turned out. it also has shades of tanith's fall at worlds and we know how that turned out.

I think I might be interpreting your comment regarding insulting the judges incorrectly and if so please correct me.

I don't find V&M's comment about having to hide any weaknesses from the judges insulting. Rather it's a sad commentary on how the judging system in icedance still works.

This has been going on for years. I recall after the 1994 Olympics, Natalia Dubova commented on U&Z and why they might have been dropped behind G&P and T&D. Dubova stated that the judges knew about the behind the scenes turmoil including the fact that Maya and Sasha weren't getting along and it effected how the judges viewed U&Z.

While there were other factors that may have left U&Z in third in Lillehammer, Dubova clearly felt that the break down of U&Z's personal relationship and that being known throughout the skating world was a major factor in their final placement.


Right, but at the same time, they mention taking it easy - more long weekends and the like.

......I think the rivalry is all but over. I have to admit that makes me sad - I love V/M's dancing and I don't see them as weaker now then they were before, so I don't get why they're being outscored by so much (or more accurately, I understand why, but I largely don't see it). If V/M have really weakened that much technically, then I guess it's fair. But it's disappointing nonetheless.

....

I don't feel that D&W have passed or outskated V&M in any way. I don't see it either.

I even feel that there is even less reason to question and discard V&M (if that is indeed what is happening) than there was with B&A.

I still don't think B&A dropped off but for arguments sake, B&A did change their plan of attack. For years, B&A were doing what D&W are getting acclaim for now; less memorable choreography but fast and difficult skating. However, B&A were criticized for that, Tanith fell during the CD at 2008 Worlds and B&A were kind of dismissed by their own coaches. When B&A came back for the 08/09 season, not only were they still adjusting to the changes Linichuk made in their skating, they also seemed to be trying a different style. Less frenetic technical content but more attention paid to line, posture and interpretation (actually I feel Tanith started working on that starting with the Amelie program). Though I didn't agree, I can see how the judges could have used that as the excuse they needed to promote D&W.

The change in technique and program style plus B&A missing nationals because of Ben's back problems once again goes back to what V&M spoke of. Making sure your team doesn't look weaker to the judging panel.

However, I'm not seeing that at all with V&M. I do feel the judges seem to be sending the message that D&W are their choice but the politicking stands out even moreso with V&M/D&W than with B&A/D&W.

IMHO, when it comes to pure skating skills, technique, interpretive skills along with chemistry between the partners and an ability to do all this while keeping the crowd engaged V&M are the top team in the world. If Scott feels this way then he has ample reason to. Even while injured V&M were still bringing it. No one outside team V&M knew about Tessa's continued battle with her injury until after the Olympic season. I certainly would never have guessed that Tessa was still having problems just by watching her perform.

It's also clear (to me) having watched both sets of programs back to back that at worst V&M are still very much equal to D&W. At best I feel from what I've seen all GP season with my own eyes, this season V&M are better as long as both teams have comparable skates.

IMO, in a fair match (not including the GPF SD because of the fall) V&M should be scoring closer to D&W. If D&W are pulling multiple 10's in some of their PCS categories then V&M should be as well.

Shayii
12-10-2011, 06:43 AM
I see the latter more than the former. One team is clearly on an upswing (D/W now, V/M in 2008) and is outpacing their training mates (recalling that V/M's 2007 SC score beat B/A's 2007 SA score). There were rumours of preference in the training camp itself. At this point, I'd be very surprised if V/M ever beats D/W totally again. I can see them maybe sneaking through for a victory in 2013 London a la B/A beating D/W and V/M in LA, but even that was a special circumstance with Tessa's injury. In 2009, I felt like they were still on the upswing to the Olympics. I'm not feeling that now.
Awww, so want's gonna happen? Are they gonna like fade into obscurity or something lol I hope not they are the reason I started watching figure skating. But now I hope they do something completely out the box, I want them to skate to music from the Inception soundtrack.

Carmen Ovsiannikov
12-10-2011, 06:53 AM
I don't think so. I think what we are seeing here is that the judges value MC's strengths and the things this team represents (speed, overt athleticism) more than the strengths and things VM value the most (true dance and grace). Nothing wrong with the former (It's sports after all so it is important; otherwise, it should not be in the Olympics) but if this is the message the judges and ISU wants to send, then perhaps they should rename this discipline. The judges may think MC is the best skaters in the ice dance discipline right now, but I still think VM is the best dancers on ice by far (PCS scores be dammed).

But that is what some of us are objecting to. The false perception that only D&W have speed. V&M may package their skating differently but it's not as if Tessa and Scott don't carry speed across the ice in their own right. They may not make everything look soooo hard as D&W do but their programs do have speed and difficulty along with the grace and dance ability. Again a more complete package.

Maybe you are correct though that the judges currently want dancing to look like hard work. At the time I was :confused: when Tanith commented that the best dancing is supposed to look like it was difficult. I guess she knows something I don't about the mindset of the judges this quadrennial.

NorthernDancers, I see your points but don't quite agree that everyone is overreacting. Pre 09/10 season it was true that we couldn't judge what would happen at the end of the season by what happened on the GP circuit. Often some of the teams who faltered in the GP moved up by the end of the season while some of the teams who appeared to be the frontrunners didn't finish as high as they were expected to.

Starting with the last Olympic season, the judges have not been subtle about who they had chosen. Some of us called the Olympic champions during the GP events. The inflated marks along with the commentators comments gave it away. At least for me. While all the Olympic champions deserved their final placements the huge point spreads were a bit much to say the least.

I've been seeing the same thing these past two seasons. And with D&W the 10's for segments that have nothing to do with speed and althleticism and the point spreads once again. Also while V&M are rightfully penalized for their mistakes I've noticed that D&W often are not. They never seem to get docked nearly as much for mistakes as the other teams.

Anyway, even though V&M are bound to finish second I hope they bounce back and :kickass:. Their FD this season is gorgeous and can win worlds whether or not it will be allowed to.

Shayii
12-10-2011, 08:29 AM
Omg T/S did a cute interview thing (well it's not really an interview): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRQeXL4k2As

DORISPULASKI
12-10-2011, 08:43 AM
euterpe posted a link to the thread I put up in Golden Skate without the intro from thread that led into it, where I said I would lay out the elements side by side, which is how COP insists the judges and tech specialists do it, at least in their minds, because a number of posters asked for something to help them judge the event for themselves.

The important part of that post is that the youtube clips are indexed to play the element in question in the order the judges ranked the skaters for each element. And the point was an invitation to the reader to go through each element, look at it, and come to their own conclusion whether the judges had gotten that element correct.

Which is, of course, what the judges do, & since they do not exactly agree on scores, there is certainly no reason that ordinary fans should either.

The rather spare commentary I threw in for readability is, indeed, my own opinion, and not authoritative in any way. And it does not deal with the PCS scores at all.

The key to the 5 points spread was not PCS difference, where the two teams were very close, especially considering Scott had the fall, due to tripping on Tessa's skate, and his subsequent catch up steps, and a slight stumble at the end of the twizzles. It was the fact that D&W skated an amazing circular step, getting the first and only level 4 of the season on that new element. Consequently, they scored 10.00 while Tessa and Scott scored 8.64. And V&M's first rhumba sequence where they got level 3 where everyone else but Bobrova got level 4. Consequently, D&W had 2.5 extra points of base value, which plus Scott's fall, gave them 3.5 potential points on Tessa & Scott in tech.

By the next outing, I fully expect Scott & Tessa to have all level 4's-typically they have peaked later in the season that Charlie & Meryl anyway.

This was not Tessa & Scott at their best, and I would not be at all surprised if they beat Meryl & Charlie at either 4CC's or Worlds or both.

PashaFan
12-10-2011, 10:26 AM
I just watched the short dance.
Gutted that Tessa & Scott fell BUT NO WAY WERE THEY THAT FAR BEHIND !
What are the judges thinking?!.
Natalie & Fabian had a more interesting dance than Meryl & Charlie but even with the fall from Tessa & Scott, they were still better (For me) than Meryl & Charlie.
It's like they can't do any wrong.
And had it been the other way around & Meryl & Charlie had a fall I truly believe the judges would not have punished them like that.
Am I watching something different to everyone else?.

pani
12-10-2011, 11:26 AM
So SC dint look at Chan perfomance& OK, maybe thats why with 1 fall and one big mistake he had season bet and 86 points near to record ;)
So now i understand - V-M couldnt be ever close to D-W untill Chan will skate. He said - Canada not respect me and Canada show - Patrick, you could skate without jumps and you will win, all OK, you dont need to skate for China :lol:
And why judges doing this for me - i really try to like D-W, but they didnt want to give me a chance :lol:
Why SC did this with such nice people, like Tessa and Scott?
I really enjoy pairs competition in this GPF, because this is reall competition between S-Z and V-T. One mistake will cost a gold. This is what i name "close competition", not what judges show about V-M and D-W rival.
Good to hear Tessa and Scott look happy :)
And this is vERY interesting - all team have there marks - P-B near 69, W-P - 64 (OK, 66 is cause GPF in Canada), B-S 64, but ONLY two teams from USA improve there score on 5 and 6 points. And Shibs skate not really good in SD. So at WCh they could repeat V-M way and V- will repeat B-A.
So, somebody in Canada understand this, people?

Proustable
12-10-2011, 02:13 PM
kina, that's interesting. I think you can take that two ways. The first is to recognize that Canada had a LOT of SGP debuts this year: four in pairs, one in men's. And you could also note that in the past, Skate Canada has been criticized for it's development of younger skaters (particularly the women). Given how hard they're pushing Patrick Chan, I don't think SC will ignore or minimize V/M


I think everyone is WAY over-reacting here. The rivalry will continue all the way to Sochi in my opinion. Bottom line is that Scott and Tessa did not have the greatest skate today in a number of areas. Charlie and Meryl had a very good skate. 4CC is a whole new competition. So is Worlds. So is next season. And Olympic year. I still believe the judges will mark what is there on that day. That is the ONLY thing to do when there are 2 teams so amazing, and so close together. Were Meryl and Charlie over-marked a little? Perhaps. I expect Scott and Tessa will make up a little ground in the FD, but not 5 points unless Charlie and Meryl have a bad day. I don't think the judges are out to get anyone. They just judged what they saw today. Tessa and Scott are competitors at heart. I'm sure they will continue to improve throughout the season. They are just getting back into the swing of things after an unfortunate year. And they look so happy, healthy and relaxed like we haven't seen them in such a long time. When both teams skate really well, I think the edge will go to Tessa and Scott. It will not be about politics or last year's results. Meryl and Charlie are very wonderful. But Tessa and Scott are something very, very special. Once in a generation. But they will have to skate their best in order to get the marks.

Only time will tell. But they will have four head to head matchups with D/W this year (GPF, Worlds, 4CC, World Team). If they don't beat them in any of them (which is clearly the way this is headed, at this juncture), what rivalry is their exactly? Especially if the point spread between them is greater than the point spread beneath V/M and 3rd.


Awww, so want's gonna happen? Are they gonna like fade into obscurity or something lol I hope not they are the reason I started watching figure skating. But now I hope they do something completely out the box, I want them to skate to music from the Inception soundtrack.

Agreed. I want them to go to different choreographers, but that's not going to happen. I would love to see them tackle like Murray Gold's music for "Doctor Who" (Scott as the time travelling alien, Tessa as his plucky companion!) or Incepiton.


By the next outing, I fully expect Scott & Tessa to have all level 4's-typically they have peaked later in the season that Charlie & Meryl anyway.

This was not Tessa & Scott at their best, and I would not be at all surprised if they beat Meryl & Charlie at either 4CC's or Worlds or both.

Maybe, but it's worth pointing out that the last time they did four international events, they still weren't getting level fours on the step sequences in either the OD or the FD (their fourth international event of the 09/10 season: 2010 Olympics).

DORISPULASKI
12-10-2011, 02:23 PM
That's true, but this is a Tessa & Scott who are healthy and actually have the extra practice hours to getting the level 4's. At least that's my hope.

pani
12-10-2011, 02:46 PM
I think in pairs competition S-Z are really close with V-T - its very interesting competition. But with D-W - its not the same case.
Why V-M didnt see this? Mariuna is always right? Yes - now she choose D-W rto be OGM in Sochi. Sorry, V-M.

liv
12-10-2011, 03:05 PM
I think people should wait until the scores of the free dance before they start really fretting. If both teams skate cleanly and there is a huge gap in the free dance scores, then you can start worrying a lot more.

I couldn't believe the huge difference inpoints either, considering I didn't like D/W's short dance, but maybe it was just the fall and the consequences afterwards.

pani
12-10-2011, 03:09 PM
I think people should wait until the scores of the free dance before they start really fretting. If both teams skate cleanly and there is a huge gap in the free dance scores, then you can start worrying a lot more.

I couldn't believe the huge difference inpoints either, considering I didn't like D/W's short dance, but maybe it was just the fall and the consequences afterwards.

:) Then we dont need to worry untill Wch and what next?

marbri
12-10-2011, 03:23 PM
I think in pairs competition S-Z are really close with V-T - its very interesting competition. But with D-W - its not the same case.
Why V-M didnt see this? Mariuna is always right? Yes - now she choose D-W rto be OGM in Sochi. Sorry, V-M.

I think D&W have a very favourable package this season, there is a reason Marina had this FD idea in her head for so long, she knew it would work for them. But that is this season, next season she needs to come up with a new idea and that is where the struggle will come. Another team with the right package, their own little masterpiece will inch their way forward throughout the season. Marina's creative struggle this season may be the package she came up with for V&M, it might not be enough for judges and others to see something new no matter how brilliantly they skate it. I hope they don't give up, I think they are far too talented and need a bit of help at the end of this season to see their untapped potential and that they are capable of really leaving their mark in this sport.

As the season stands they just need to keep training and do the best they can, get their levels to insure they end up with silver at Worlds and not bronze behind Pechalet and Bourzat. Yesterday Scott fell so this competition is over for them and no point dwelling on it.

pani
12-10-2011, 03:30 PM
As the season stands they just need to keep training and do the best they can, get their levels to insure they end up with silver at Worlds and not bronze behind Pechalet and Bourzat. Yesterday Scott fell so this competition is over for them and no point dwelling on it.

Very optimistic. Sorry, but this sound like they dont need to skate this season and must thinking about next. Did you realized they will retier, if judges will made this from competition to competition?
In 2000 B-K didnt skate at WCh in Nice and change coach after GPF.

Sorry, but i want to hear some answers from Zueva and Thompson.