PDA

View Full Version : Frank Carroll on Elizaveta Tuktamisheva



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15

krenseby
10-31-2011, 12:22 AM
In Beverley Smith's article about Skate Canada in the Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/more-sports/article2218907.ece), Frank Carroll offers his thoughts about Elizaveta Tuktamisheva. Do you agree or disagree with the following assertions about Elizaveta's skating?

1.) Elizaveta is "a little girl who has very tiny legs and she can rotate like a bat out of hell.. She’s doing triple-triples like nothing while these other girls are more mature and struggling with it."

2.) In her long program, Elizaveta shows "no maturity, looking like she should be in a novice or junior program."

3.) "Elizaveta will have to learn to skate much more like a woman, with maturity." (Not a direct quote, but a view attributed to him in the article.)

4.) "If the judges scored her correctly, they would give her high technical marks, but (she) should be scored at six or seven for the presentation marks." (Not a direct quote, but a view attributed to him in the article.)

5. "Tuktamisheva may turn out to be a marvelous skater, come time." (Not a direct quote, but a view attributed to him in the article.)

IceAlisa
10-31-2011, 12:30 AM
Agree with all statements.

rfisher
10-31-2011, 12:31 AM
Frank is wise.

smarts1
10-31-2011, 12:32 AM
Um I wish someone wrote an article about what Frank thought of Mirai's performance...

Anyways, I think his assessment is fair. Liza is only 14, so her lack of maturity is going to be evident. We also have to see how the puberty monster affects her. Although her jump technique is nice, her jumps aren't that big. And she probably won't ever become like Kwan. Mishin's skaters are never packaged properly, and they're all about the jumps.

Louise
10-31-2011, 12:34 AM
ABSOFOCKINGLUTELY. At least Frank Carroll is now not as totally boring and PC as he has been in the past. Princess Tut is nothing until she gets some puberty under her belt, unless the Olys happen before then.

Absolutely in praise of the new FC.

Just read the entire article. There is nothing that FC that any reasonable person would disagree with. Mirai took herself out, and if I know psychology FC has NO HOPE for Mirai ever. I think his quotes were just someone who is smart, been there done there. He's not protecting his client, he is TRYING to protect the sport.

Princess TUT 0, Frank Carroll 2

millipied
10-31-2011, 12:39 AM
And the point Frank Carroll is trying to make is what exactly?
Is he implying that skaters of that age and of that complection should not be allowed to compete and/or win at senior level?
Is he suggesting that to qualify for senior competition one must go through a new medical examination prohibiting tiny legs?
Or is he suggesting that 14 y.o skater if allowed into seniors should look like and skate like 25 year old woman?

I would have more appriciated if Frank Carroll focused his comments on things like Elizaveta's exquisite technical skills which should be an indicator of her future rather than trying to foolishly and unconvincingly diminish the win of his skater's direct competitor.

burntBREAD
10-31-2011, 12:43 AM
And the point Frank Carroll is trying to make is what exactly?
Is he implying that skaters of that age and of that complection should not be allowed to compete and/or win at senior level?
Is he suggesting that to qualify for senior competition one must go through a new medical examination prohibiting tiny legs?
Or is he suggesting that 14 y.o skater if allowed into seniors should look like and skate like 25 year old woman?

I would have more appriciated if Frank Carroll focused his comments on things like Elizaveta's exquisite technical skills which should be an indicator of her future rather than trying to foolishly and unconvincingly diminish the win of his skater's direct competitor.

Wow, talk about defensive. Every single question you ask is pretty ridiculous and weren't even suggested by Frank's quotes.

millipied
10-31-2011, 12:45 AM
Wow, talk about defensive. Every single question you ask is pretty ridiculous and weren't even suggested by Frank's quotes.

Ok, so what's the point he is making then? Enlighten me.

Sylvia
10-31-2011, 12:45 AM
I am under the impression that all of Frank Carroll's quotes in the article came before the Ladies FS on Saturday.

doubleflutz
10-31-2011, 12:47 AM
1) Hell no. As I said in the other thread, there's no shortage of Russian juniors who are only completing triple-triple combinations because they are young and have temporarily tiny little bodies. Julia Lipnitskaya, Daria Medvedeva, etc. Liza, on the other hand, has flawless technique on every jump except the flip, which has a minor lip sometimes. For her size, her jumps get decent height and ice coverage, and she usually has excellent landings with full control. In the video of her triple axel that's on Youtube, she does difficult steps into and out of it. She's an excellent jumper right now because she is an excellent jumper, period. I'm confident that her jumps will survive when she gets older, if she does not have injuries. Ironically, a skater who lost her ability to do triple-triples and rotate jumps fully due to getting older was Mirai. Frank is not responsible for the bad technique she came to him with, but people living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
2) That's a bit harsh. She looks like a very young senior lady, but still like a senior lady. Perhaps I'm biased because of her Japan Open performance of that LP, but I don't think the program is quite as bad as he is making it out to be.
3) Take out the somewhat sexual overtones to the whole "little girl vs mature woman" phrasing, and I agree. The old code for artistic gymnastics used to value "virtuousity" very highly, and I think that's a pretty good term to describe what juniorish skaters tend to be lacking. Panache, virtuosity, ease, dynamism, etc. She also needs better skating skills, but that's more technical than anything else.
4) Yep, with the caveat that I think her P/E mark should be a bit higher than all the others, immaturity and all.
5) Yep.

Basically, he's completely right except for the way he's trying to attribute her jumping abilities to her youth and size.

gingercrush
10-31-2011, 12:48 AM
1. And? Slutskaya was still doing triple-triples in her 20s. Ito was too. Good technique as I believe Tuktamisheva has should do her well. As it has done with Kim. Of course things can change but even if she does mature she still has a bloody good chance to be better than nearly everyone else out there.

2. Disagree. She looks better than many of the age-eligible senior skaters. I see a skater with forced choregraphy but I certainly don't see a novice there and as mentioned she is already better than many senior skaters.

3. And? So could a lot of age-eligible seniors. No doubt she'll improve with age.

4. LOL she was scored in the sixes. So not sure the point of this at all. I would have given her higher transition score.

5. She already beat Negasu, Suzuki, Flatt, Wagner and Leonova. I think Carroll she is already well on her way.

Carroll is a dickhead and you'd think having now won a Gold he'd be a bit more happier. Instead he sounds like a nasty idiot.

burntBREAD
10-31-2011, 12:49 AM
Ok, so what's the point he is making then? Enlighten me.

Well, firstly the author of the article, even before they quoted anything, was talking about Liza's incredible technical ability but rationalizing why she had lower PCS than Suzuki or Wagner.

Frank is saying that Liza is excellent technically but has much to grow in terms of performance. Yes, he overemphasizes it a bit but there's nothing where he says she should be banned from senior competition or whatever you suggested.

rfisher
10-31-2011, 12:52 AM
And the point Frank Carroll is trying to make is what exactly?
Is he implying that skaters of that age and of that complection should not be allowed to compete and/or win at senior level?
Is he suggesting that to qualify for senior competition one must go through a new medical examination prohibiting tiny legs?
Or is he suggesting that 14 y.o skater if allowed into seniors should look like and skate like 25 year old woman?

I would have more appriciated if Frank Carroll focused his comments on things like Elizaveta's exquisite technical skills which should be an indicator of her future rather than trying to foolishly and unconvincingly diminish the win of his skater's direct competitor.

I think you're reading too much into the article and quotes. :lol: She is tiny and there's no telling what she'll do over the next few years. Remember the problems Asada had going from 14-19? She skates like a 14 yo, which isn't a bad thing since she's 14. She won the competition fair and square because of her technical skills. Good for her. No one knows what she'll become at this point. Hopefully, she'll keep her jumps as she grows and matures and will be an amazing skater. She's good now; she's not amazing.

millipied
10-31-2011, 12:52 AM
Well, firstly the author of the article, even before they quoted anything, was talking about Liza's incredible technical ability but rationalizing why she had lower PCS than Suzuki or Wagner.

Frank is saying that Liza is excellent technically but has much to grow in terms of performance. Yes, he overemphasizes it a bit but there's nothing where he says she should be banned from senior competition or whatever you suggested.

I am not suggesting anything. I am just questioning the motivation AND the particular questionable choice of words. As you just confirmed yourself. What does anything he mentions has to do with her age or her body? and if it does, what does that mean?
Frank Carroll is developing Patrick Chan's "foot in mouth" desease.

julieann
10-31-2011, 12:52 AM
And the point Frank Carroll is trying to make is what exactly?
Is he implying that skaters of that age and of that complection should not be allowed to compete and/or win at senior level?
Is he suggesting that to qualify for senior competition one must go through a new medical examination prohibiting tiny legs?
Or is he suggesting that 14 y.o skater if allowed into seniors should look like and skate like 25 year old woman?

I would have more appriciated if Frank Carroll focused his comments on things like Elizaveta's exquisite technical skills which should be an indicator of her future rather than trying to foolishly and unconvincingly diminish the win of his skater's direct competitor.

What did you read?

His comments were spot on, she is immature, SHE'S 14! She can jump better than than girls who already hit puberty and have more mature bodies. As he said, she MAY become a great skater (maybe knowing full well she may not survive puberty) but if she can she will be marvelous. She should have high technical marks and lower PCS, I don't see a problem with his comments.