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Vash01
10-31-2011, 04:58 PM
I agree with it in theory, but excuse me, but do good sportmanship really exist in the real world? I mean we'd all like to think so, but really.... it must be a rare and wonderful thing because I rarely see it on this board or in figure skating in general with so much politicking and bickering and all! :D I didn't realize being a saint is also in the job description for a coach in this sport.



Firstly, I just want to say I am not condoning Frank's comment, but at the same time I totally understand why he said what he said - being who he is, and who's interest he serve. For all I know, it might be a encouraging remark to Mirai, encouraging her to work on her PCS since her jump is lacking, who knows?!

Yeah if someone has done the same to Mirai, Frank would have a field day. Now Frank done this to the Liza, I bet the Russians are having a field day. It is just gentle sporting ribbing, no big deal.

What I do know is this Frank bashing has been blown out of proportion. FYI John Nick is British, we are not part of the cold war, we love the Russians and we know when to bite our tongue :)

I have seen some good sportsmanship, at least in public comments, and sometimes among the athletes and the coaches too. At least publicly some are not afraid of giving credit where it's due, and being critical of an athlete who has just beaten the one you coached comes across as sour grapes.

bek
10-31-2011, 05:05 PM
Let's just keep it simple.

She's 14, she's got a lot of talent, but let's not hand her the OGM just yet. She could go in any direction as a result of body changes, pressure of expectations or just simply plateau in her development. History has taught us that all sorts of things can happen.

I can appreciate that people can get caught up in the fact that she's 14 and just won a GP so Frank is giving a reality check perhaps in an effort to not let momentum take her results further than her abilities currently dictate. But yeah, no harm in also pointing out and celebrating her strengths. It's a balance.

But I didn't see a lot of people saying Elizaveta's going to win the Olympics for sure . A lot of people have said lets wait for puberty, heck even the Russians recognize this one. I think a lot of people think one of the Russian babies is bound to be a force by the Olympics just by their sheer numbers. But nobody's saying for sure it will be Tukt. She's not even their most successful one right now. (Sotnikova I suspect is the Federation's fave)

What people are recognizing is a very talented 14 year old. One of the most talented 14 year olds to come around in awhile, and someone with a strong foundation, who could potentially be great. Sure its a wait and see. But you can say its a wait and see in a much nicer way. And you don't have to say she's novice level (which she's frankly not).

PDilemma
10-31-2011, 05:09 PM
It is useful to note that this is how journalism works:

Reporter: Can you recite the alphabet?

Interviewee: ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

Published story: When asked to recite the alphabet, interviewee's response included "DEF".

Message boards: "OMG! Interviewee doesn't even know the alphabet!!

bek
10-31-2011, 05:14 PM
It is useful to note that this is how journalism works:

Reporter: Can you recite the alphabet?

Interviewee: ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

Published story: When asked to recite the alphabet, interviewee's response included "DEF".

Message boards: "OMG! Interviewee doesn't even know the alphabet!!

This is absolutely true. But Frank's got a history of making comments about other people's athletes. He's made similar comments about Tara.

Vash01
10-31-2011, 05:28 PM
But I didn't see a lot of people saying Elizaveta's going to win the Olympics for sure . A lot of people have said lets wait for puberty, heck even the Russians recognize this one. I think a lot of people think one of the Russian babies is bound to be a force by the Olympics just by their sheer numbers. But nobody's saying for sure it will be Tukt. She's not even their most successful one right now. (Sotnikova I suspect is the Federation's fave)

What people are recognizing is a very talented 14 year old. One of the most talented 14 year olds to come around in awhile, and someone with a strong foundation, who could potentially be great. Sure its a wait and see. But you can say its a wait and see in a much nicer way. And you don't have to say she's novice level (which she's frankly not).

That was a cheap shot by Frank, and totally uncalled for.

bek
10-31-2011, 05:29 PM
That was a cheap shot by Frank, and totally uncalled for.

This being said he did mention Michelle Kwan was the same way, so perhaps he was taken out of context. And Kwan is his greatest athlete. It actually is a fair comparison.

IceAlisa
10-31-2011, 06:04 PM
I think this is a tempest in a tea cup. What Frank said was candid and true. Perhaps it was not the most tactful or politically expedient statement but still, an accurate assessment. I don't feel that he was bitter or put Elizaveta down in any way.

Didn't we all go on and on how Liza's LP made her look juniorish and how she skates in small circles and doesn't cover the ice just like a junior? Yes, of course this is FC who is a tad more visible in the skating community than FSU (although who really knows? :EVILLE:), hence my political expedience or lack thereof comment.

Cheylana
10-31-2011, 06:10 PM
I really think Frank just calls things as he sees them. He certainly has had no trouble speaking his mind about Mirai, good and bad.

IceAlisa
10-31-2011, 06:13 PM
It is useful to note that this is how journalism works:

Reporter: Can you recite the alphabet?

Interviewee: ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

Published story: When asked to recite the alphabet, interviewee's response included "DEF".

Message boards: "OMG! Interviewee doesn't even know the alphabet!!

:rofl:

bek
10-31-2011, 06:16 PM
I think this is a tempest in a tea cup. What Frank said was candid and true. Perhaps it was not the most tactful or politically expedient statement but still, an accurate assessment. I don't feel that he was bitter or put Elizaveta down in any way.

Didn't we all go on and on how Liza's LP made her look juniorish and how she skates in small circles and doesn't cover the ice just like a junior? Yes, of course this is FC who is a tad more visible in the skating community than FSU (although who really knows? :EVILLE:), hence my political expedience or lack thereof comment.

But a lot of us also commented on Elizaveta's good points. There's a reason this kid gets hyped and people think she has a strong future, and its always been because of how solid her basics are and how amazing those jumps are. A 14 year old being able to land a triple flip isn't a big deal. But being able to do it with that kind of technique and control is.

I suspect Frank sees exactly the same thing there that people like the Eurosport commentators or Tracy Wilson sees. But other than one off hand comment about wonderful jumps he proceeded to go off on how she's not a "lady skater" and how she's tiny so she can jump.

She's also what the first lady skater to win their Senior GP debuts. Even Asada, and Kim didn't do that. There's a lot of good things to say about this 14 kid, and yes its a 14 year old Frank was publically picking on for pretty much being tiny and not a super mature performer. Things she nor her coaches can help.

Doubletoe
10-31-2011, 06:18 PM
I really think Frank just calls things as he sees them. He certainly has had no trouble speaking his mind about Mirai, good and bad.

Exactly. Anybody who would publicly gush over a pre-pubescent 14 year old figure skater is just tempting fate. Remember when Caroline Zhang was Junior World Champion and The Next Big Thing? Granted, Elizaveta's jump technique is 1000% better than Caroline's was. . . but so was Mirai's. . .

IceAlisa
10-31-2011, 06:21 PM
But a lot of us also commented on Elizaveta's good points. And so did he. He did mention her jumps in a way that I consider complimentary. Yes, I mean the "bat out of hell" comment. And many would agree that that's where Elizaveta's good points pretty much end at this stage.


But other than one off hand comment about wonderful jumps he proceeded to go off on how she's not a "lady skater" and how she's tiny so she can jump. Do you disagree with any of it?


She's also what the first lady skater to win their Senior GP debuts. Even Asada, and Kim didn't do that. There's a lot of good things to say about this 14 kid, and yes its a 14 year old Frank was publically picking on for pretty much being tiny and not a super mature performer.
I am sorry, did you expect a diatribe about historical milestones in Grand Prix? In a what was most likely a rushed, clipped interview that was likely quoted in the way PDilemma so accurately described?

Also, I don't feel he is picking on Liza for being tiny, he is stating a fact that being tiny and pre-puberty makes jumping easier.

bek
10-31-2011, 06:31 PM
And so did he. He did mention her jumps in a way that I consider complimentary. And many would agree that that's where Elizaveta's good points pretty much end at this stage.

I actually don't think thats where Tukt's good points end. A lot of people who have seen her live have said good things about her ability to perform and hit her music. I don't think she'll necessarily be a Cohen/Mao. But I think she could easily be developed into a Kim. One thing I noticed in her exhibition is how she paid attention to the music and seemed to really at times LOVE to dance to it.
If it weren't for Elizaveta's coach, I'd have good feelings about her potential artistically.

She's not a Flatt or an Ando.

Just because someone says something that is true Ice Alisa doesn't mean they said it in the right way or they couldn't be said. Frank made an offhanded comment about wonderful jumps but didn't really get into the fact that Tukt's technique is extremely good. And sets her apart from other 14 year old girls.

When you are quick to bring up someone's bad points, while failing to bring up their good points, there can lead to a bad taste. He pretty much for the most part went pretty big on her big points, while downplaying her very good points.

I mean if he had said. Its hard to know with young girls because when puberty changes, it affects the way they jump and they get away with less. She has wonderful jumping techinque that should help but there's no guarantees. She needs more maturity in her movement/skating. So she's more like lady and less like a young girl. Thats something the rest of the field has over her. But she's clearly a very good competitor. Kudos to her. It will be interesting to see how she handles puberty/and if she gets more maturity.

See how Frank would have been saying the same things but in a less controversial tone, while given the skater more credit for her good points? Nobody would have had issue with those words.

skatesindreams
10-31-2011, 06:33 PM
Originally Posted by Cheylana
I really think Frank just calls things as he sees them. He certainly has had no trouble speaking his mind about Mirai, good and bad.

I don't see anything wrong with anything FC said.
As good as Liza was/is. I'm reserving judgement about her long-term prospects until after the "puberty monster" has had its' way.

Cheylana
10-31-2011, 06:41 PM
Just because someone says something that is true Ice Alisa doesn't mean they said it in the right way or they couldn't be said. Frank made an offhanded comment about wonderful jumps but didn't really get into the fact that Tukt's technique is extremely good. And sets her apart from other 14 year old girls.

When you are quick to bring up someone's bad points, while failing to bring up their good points, there can lead to a bad taste. He pretty much for the most part went pretty big on her big points, while downplaying her very good points.
As was noted several times above, we don't know that Frank only harped on Liza's bad points. He might have said other complimentary things, but the reporter picked and chose what she wanted to quote.