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bek
10-31-2011, 03:43 PM
In a way at his age, at this decades of his career, Frank is just saying what he thinks and heck with the consequences. I mean do you honest expect a Russian coach to say good things about a rival nation student without play down the praise just a bit at some point? It is just sporting rivalry. His comment about her PCS is actually right on the mark, and Liza was marked correctly well within the range.

Well William Thompson of Skate Canada referred to Tuktimsheva as wonderful. And commented on the development of ladies has been struggling world wide.
And then there was Orser commenting on how great Mirai was at the Olympics.

One could point a contrasting comment after Yu-na Kim's Olympic win and the president of the USFSA saying Kim wasn't the full package. (She's far more the full package than Evan, to be quite frank, and they wouldn't be saying it if was an American star).

The development in ladies in general has been dismal, which is why a fan of ladies skating it is exciting to see young talents like Elizaveta, and Adelina come out of the woodwork.

At the end of the day the US should focus on developing their own ladies figure skaters to be competitive...If Nagasu had done her jump, she'd have likely won.

os168
10-31-2011, 03:57 PM
Well William Thompson of Skate Canada referred to Tuktimsheva as wonderful. And commented on the development of ladies has been struggling world wide.
And then there was Orser commenting on how great Mirai was at the Olympics.

One could point a contrasting comment after Yu-na Kim's Olympic win and the president of the USFSA saying Kim wasn't the full package. (She's far more the full package than Evan, to be quite frank, and they wouldn't be saying it if was an American star).

The development in ladies in general has been dismal, which is why a fan of ladies skating it is exciting to see young talents like Elizaveta, and Adelina come out of the woodwork.

At the end of the day the US should focus on developing their own ladies figure skaters to be competitive...If Nagasu had done her jump, she'd have likely won.

Yeah at the same time Frank Carroll is just being Frank Carroll. He is 72, lived through ww2, cold war, spend most of his life competitive and giving out sound byte / self medicated motivation booster like this.

In otherwords, he is just a different kettle of fish compare to most of the modern carefully worded PC comments without invested self interest unlike FC. Could it be offensive? If only you let it. He is harmless, I seriously doubt in the media saturated age we have today, this type of tactic can still be effective without some repercussions.

bek
10-31-2011, 04:04 PM
Yeah at the same time Frank Carroll is just being Frank Carroll. He is 72, lived through ww2, cold war, spend most of his life competitive and giving out sound byte / self medicated motivation booster like this.

In otherwords, he is just a different kettle of fish compare to most of the modern carefully worded PC comments. Could it be offensive? If only you let it. He is harmless, I seriously doubt in the media saturated age we have today, this type of tactic can still be effective without some repercussions.

But sometimes its not about being PC but at times its just about getting credit where credit is do. Its good sportsmanship that brings about some good will too. Is he going to make similar begruding comments about the wonderful Sotnikova next week? Sotnikova, whose coach put Denis Ten on the map, giving him wonderful basics and technique? Adelina has her issues certainly, but she is a beautiful skater.

Braulio
10-31-2011, 04:12 PM
Frank can say whatever he wants about any skater, so he did about La Tuk skating, period

I will wait for the puberty and growth spurt take its toll on Elizaveta and see what we have after that

Mao Asada and Kim Yu Na struggled a bit, but look at Caroline Zhang

So I will wait, but until then technically she will win unless other mature skaters bring their act together

senorita
10-31-2011, 04:17 PM
I was at the event as well and agree on both counts. Her 3+3 is incredibly easy, and all her jumps get great height. She's got charisma and musicality. Lots of potential, and lots of things to work on.



This exactly. How simple phrase that sums up her appearance. He could have said something like this. That Liza is small and still junior, i didnt need Caroll to say me the obvious, she is 14, I didnt expect Akiko's sophisticated programs from her. That she hasnt hit puberty also and we dont know how it goes, that has been said gazillion times for all juniors that go to seniors, nothing new as well. The truth is that this has been said about Liza since she was 12 and started growing up and now she is almost 15 and keeps going.
Eurosport guys were saying that she uses all her energy in the jump itself, not on preparation, I suppose this is good? Anyway they were gushing a lot, but pointing out she is only 14 and has work to do. There are many ways to say the obvious. Mirai since Vancouver had been hinted as the next OC, maybe he feels the pressure? I m waiting to see what he will say for Adelina who skates more mature anyway.

I think Carol should concetrate on Mirai's mess of an Lp even if it is by L.Nicol and leave Elisaveta's problems to Mishin.

bek
10-31-2011, 04:18 PM
Frank can say whatever he wants about any skater, so he did about La Tuk skating, period

I will wait for the puberty and growth spurt take its toll on Elizaveta and see what we have after that

Mao Asada and Kim Yu Na struggled a bit, but look at Caroline Zhang

So I will wait, but until then technically she will win unless other mature skaters bring their act together

Of course Frank can say what he wants. But you say what you want you can get criticized. And he pretty much an influential person was going after a 14 year old, for being 14. While giving pretty much begruding credit for what makes the 14 year old a lot better than other 14 year olds. Elizaveta isn't even old enough to be world champion this year. Puberty will tell the tale soon.

Zemgirl
10-31-2011, 04:19 PM
Yeah at the same time Frank Carroll is just being Frank Carroll. He is 72, lived through ww2, cold war, spend most of his life competitive and giving out sound byte / self medicated motivation booster like this.

In otherwords, he is just a different kettle of fish compare to most of the modern carefully worded PC comments without invested self interest unlike FC. Could it be offensive? If only you let it. He is harmless, I seriously doubt in the media saturated age we have today, this type of tactic can still be effective without some repercussions.
He was six when the war ended. Was his family personally affected by the war? Is this relevant to the discussion here? Mr. Nicks is older and he doesn't go around making nasty comments about Ashley's competitors, or the skaters who competed against whoever he's coached.

If someone had made similar comments about Mirai and her marks being too high for such a juniorish Carmen two years ago, Frank would have had a field day. He's still convinced that Fratianne was the target of shady dealing and said that Evan Lysacek was getting edge calls because of biased Russian and French callers looking out for Plushenko and Joubert. He told Christine Brennan a few years back that one of Evan's competitors was getting a world champion bonus (which Evan never got, no no, he was just the most passionate, interpretive skater :rolleyes:). Seriously, I don't care how old he is; he comes across as a jerk when he makes comments like that. It's uncalled for, and he should focus on his own skaters. I don't seem him teaching the kind of jump technique Liza has. And I must say his interactions with Mirai at SC and in other competitions have not impressed me, either.

overedge
10-31-2011, 04:21 PM
Well William Thompson of Skate Canada referred to Tuktimsheva as wonderful. And commented on the development of ladies has been struggling world wide.
And then there was Orser commenting on how great Mirai was at the Olympics.


What do either of these things have to do with Frank Carroll expressing his thoughts?

JanetB
10-31-2011, 04:25 PM
But sometimes its not about being PC but at times its just about getting credit where credit is do. Its good sportsmanship that brings about some good will too. Is he going to make similar begruding comments about the wonderful Sotnikova next week? Sotnikova, whose coach put Denis Ten on the map, giving him wonderful basics and technique?

I think one of the things that we have to remember about this article and all other articles, is that the person quoted did not write it. The slate of the article comes from the Journalist and we need to ask the question how much of what Frank Carol said was not used.

Loves_Shizuka
10-31-2011, 04:27 PM
What a superb thread.

bek
10-31-2011, 04:32 PM
What do either of these things have to do with Frank Carroll expressing his thoughts?

The poster was commenting on who would comment nicely on rival's skaters. I was pointing out plenty of people did/do.

There's a point in time absolutely for political comments. But its not always necessary. And there's a time when you can say hey nice skater, congrats.. Like when Brian Orser commented about Mirai after her Olympic long. I'm sure Brian could have gone about well she needs to fix those underrotations. It would have been the truth, but necessary? And Orser had not only Yu-na but GAO to think about. Gao who directly benefits. Instead Orser complimented Mirai.

Its not like Tukt's getting huge PCS right now (they are in the range Frank thinks they should be) and she's not even old enough to compete at worlds.

So why is it necessary after the kid made history being the first one to win at her Senior Grand Prix debut, to rain on her and the Russians parade like that. As long as Mirai skates like she skated at Skate Canada, she's never going to be a champion, Tuktamisheva or no Tuktamisheva. If its not a Russian skater it will be Japanese skater, Kostner, or another American skater.

Primorskaya
10-31-2011, 04:37 PM
What do either of these things have to do with Frank Carroll expressing his thoughts?

Well, that it shows you can be a committed coach and support your students while still show respect to their competitors, maybe?

He's entitled to express his thoughts, and we're entitled to wish he wouldn't phrase them in such a contentious manner.

mag
10-31-2011, 04:39 PM
...So why is it necessary after the kid made history being the first one to win at her Senior Grand Prix debut, to rain on her and the Russians parade like that. As long as Mirai skates like she skated at Skate Canada, she's never going to be a champion, Tuktamisheva or no Tuktamisheva. If its not a Russian skater it will be Japanese skater, Kostner, or another American skater.

Because he is a bitter old man. He may not be, but that is definitely the impression I get. I wonder if he thought something would change drastically after one of his students won an OGM? Maybe he had been dreaming about it for so long and was disappointed when life just went on much the way it always does? Lots of armchair psychology, I know, but I completely agree that if he felt the need to comment, he should have sucked it up and been polite - she is a 14 year kid after all. IMO, all his comments do is focus people on how poorly Mirai skated - he would have been better off saying nothing at all.

os168
10-31-2011, 04:50 PM
But sometimes its not about being PC but at times its just about getting credit where credit is do. Its good sportsmanship that brings about some good will too.

I agree with it in theory, but excuse me, but do good sportmanship really exist in the real world?

I mean we'd all like to think so, but really.... it must be a rare and wonderful thing because I rarely see it on this board or in figure skating in general with so much politicking and bickering and all! :D I didn't realize being a saint is also in the job description for a coach in this sport.


He was six when the war ended. Was his family personally affected by the war? Is this relevant to the discussion here? Mr. Nicks is older and he doesn't go around making nasty comments about Ashley's competitors, or the skaters who competed against whoever he's coached.

If someone had made similar comments about Mirai and her marks being too high for such a juniorish Carmen two years ago, Frank would have had a field day. He's still convinced that Fratianne was the target of shady dealing and said that Evan Lysacek was getting edge calls because of biased Russian and French callers looking out for Plushenko and Joubert. He told Christine Brennan a few years back that one of Evan's competitors was getting a world champion bonus (which Evan never got, no no, he was just the most passionate, interpretive skater :rolleyes:). Seriously, I don't care how old he is; he comes across as a jerk when he makes comments like that. It's uncalled for, and he should focus on his own skaters. I don't seem him teaching the kind of jump technique Liza has. And I must say his interactions with Mirai at SC and in other competitions have not impressed me, either.

Firstly, I just want to say I am not condoning Frank's comment, but at the same time I totally understand why he said what he said - being who he is, and who's interest he serve. For all I know, it might be a encouraging remark to Mirai, encouraging her to work on her PCS since her jump is lacking, who knows?!

Yeah if someone has done the same to Mirai, Frank would have a field day. Now Frank done this to the Liza, I bet the Russians are having a field day. It is just gentle sporting ribbing, no big deal.

What I do know is this Frank bashing has been blown out of proportion. FYI John Nick is British, we are not part of the cold war, we like the Russians and we know when to bite our tongue :)

Rock2
10-31-2011, 04:52 PM
Let's just keep it simple.

She's 14, she's got a lot of talent, but let's not hand her the OGM just yet. She could go in any direction as a result of body changes, pressure of expectations or just simply plateau in her development. History has taught us that all sorts of things can happen.

I can appreciate that people can get caught up in the fact that she's 14 and just won a GP so Frank is giving a reality check perhaps in an effort to not let momentum take her results further than her abilities currently dictate. But yeah, no harm in also pointing out and celebrating her strengths. It's a balance.