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View Full Version : Frank Carroll on Elizaveta Tuktamisheva



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oleada
10-31-2011, 05:20 AM
IMO Tukhtamisheva is a fantastic talent. :) She is musical - she hits the beat in her step sequences as well as throughout the program and she has a good feeling for music. She is naturally elegant and expressive. Of course she has to work on her ice coverage and on keeping the speed through the step sequences. But other than that, I already find her more interesting and more watchable than the majority of the so-called mature skaters. Plus she has just won a senior GP, which is a major achievement in any skater's career. So it is already happening for her now.

Her jumps are not only fast rotating but pretty high considering her slight build. They aren't all speed and no height like some other skaters'. Hopefully her jumps will gain even more in height as she gets stronger, even though she may not rotate as fast as she does now.


I was at the event. She needs more ice coverage, but she surprised me with the maturity of her skating. She interpreted the music well, and was confident and polished - she didn't look junior to me. There's more room to grow of course, but I wonder if Frank would say the same things now that the event is over and he has seen both of her programs. She looks to me like a young senior lady with enormous potential (although growth issues could still sidetrack her).

I was at the event as well and agree on both counts. Her 3+3 is incredibly easy, and all her jumps get great height. She's got charisma and musicality. Lots of potential, and lots of things to work on.

To be honest, I think Frank comes across as really bitter. I don't know what he expects about PCS, given that she got the 3rd highest PCS of the event. Who should have had higher PCS than didn't already get it in the long program?

caseyedwards
10-31-2011, 05:21 AM
Caroll is continuing his longstanding policy of relentless bashing of anyone who comes close or surpasses his skaters. Lipinski, Slutskaya, Plushenko, Annette Potzch. He is absolutely the most political and shameless coach in the sport.

bbkenn
10-31-2011, 07:16 AM
I think Frank Carroll is right.

Zemgirl
10-31-2011, 07:36 AM
I think Frank Carroll should focus on the skater he was coaching at SC. Looked to me like there's quite a bit of work to be done there.

And while I don't often agree with caseyedwards, it's true that this is not the first time Carroll has seen fit to share with the press his (very critical) views on his skaters' competitors. It doesn't even matter if his views are on point or not; this is neither the place nor the way to express them. "No comment" would have served nicely in this case, or "I haven't had the time to watch her performances yet".

FWIW, I think Tukt is quite a talent and shows a lot of promise. Her jump technique looks sound and while she has work to do on the presentation side, she's off to a good start.

Vash01
10-31-2011, 07:55 AM
I think Frank Carroll should focus on the skater he was coaching at SC. Looked to me like there's quite a bit of work to be done there.

And while I don't often agree with caseyedwards, it's true that this is not the first time Carroll has seen fit to share with the press his (very critical) views on his skaters' competitors. It doesn't even matter if his views are on point or not; this is neither the place nor the way to express them. "No comment" would have served nicely in this case, or "I haven't had the time to watch her performances yet".

FWIW, I think Tukt is quite a talent and shows a lot of promise. Her jump technique looks sound and while she has work to do on the presentation side, she's off to a good start.


The truly classy people are not afraid of praising their competitors.

FC comes across as a shrewd politician who will use his reputation to put down anyone that threatens his skaters.

Loves_Shizuka
10-31-2011, 09:08 AM
I agree with some of what he says, but there's something about Frank which REALLY turns me off.

I agree there's a hint of sour grapes - yes, Liza's body helps her, but what is she supposed to do - apologise? Not compete until she's gone through puberty? I know these are ridiculous things to say, but it seems some people on here wouldn't be happy until she did either of these things. Liza is 14, and skating like a 14yo. And really, she was marked for a 14yo's performance, otherwise she'd have beaten Suzuki. Were she to skate like a 24yo, I'm sure many would complain that she's "grown-up too quickly" or something along those lines. There's just no pleasing some people, especially when their faves (or skaters ;) ) aren't doing so well.

Ziggy
10-31-2011, 09:34 AM
1.) Elizaveta is "a little girl who has very tiny legs and she can rotate like a bat out of hell.. She’s doing triple-triples like nothing while these other girls are more mature and struggling with it."

Dear Frank, you could admit that Tuktamisheva's jump technique is AMAZING and stop attributing it to just her age.

You're probably jealous that you're not capable of teaching skaters technique this good. :P

Sorry but those comments come out as really bitter. Especially given how horrifically bad Nagasu has skated in the FS, for her standard.


2.) In her long program, Elizaveta shows "no maturity, looking like she should be in a novice or junior program."

5. "Tuktamisheva may turn out to be a marvelous skater, come time." (Not a direct quote, but a view attributed to him in the article.)

True.

But, it has to be pointed out that Tuktamisheva uses her upper body a lot and does respond to music.

She reflected the changes of tempo and intensity well in the FS. Of course, her range is very limited, but that's understandable given her age.

She's more or less ticking at least most of the right boxes and I am sure she's going to get there in time (or not given Mishin's team attitude to choreography :P).


Although her jump technique is nice, her jumps aren't that big.

Huh? They are definitely big, given how small she is.


I agree Bek, but TUT only has jumps. Only. She is not a gifted spinner, footworker, performer or anything else. I almost died when some poster wrote that she loves how TUT is always doing something with her hands. WTH? She's hand flicking almost every second, but that has nothing to do with skating, it's so superficial and pitiful.

:rolleyes:

You might want to rewatch her FS before saying such spiteful crap.

She is capable of moving in time with the music (which can't be said for a lot of skaters) and she did reflect the music with her movements in her programs, even if her range was very limited.

Elkmaria
10-31-2011, 09:45 AM
I re-read Frank's quotes several times, and, frankly speaking, I didn't find his comments particularly harsh in their essence. Yes, he is critical of Liza in some aspects, and his criticism is very straight-forward (like many posters, I think this has something to do with his disappointment about his own skater's placement :P ). But he later mentions that Kwan had the same presentation problems when she was 14 years old. If Frank wanted to diss Liza or object to her competing at the senior level, I don't think he'd compare her to his own greatest pupil. But he admitted that even the great Kwan was not a brilliant performer at such young age, and this implies that he believes Liza is capable of improving as she grows up, and has the potential of becoming a skater of Kwan's calibre. Maybe Frank didn't mean this as a compliment, but it definitely sounds like one :lol:

Primorskaya
10-31-2011, 10:25 AM
Bitter much, Mr Carroll?

She certainly had the maturity to keep her nerves under control and do herself proud on her 1st senior GP event. At 14. Which isn't something everyone seems able to do, n'est-ce pas Mirai?
As for her skating skills (apart from the obviously great jumps) I'll reserve my opinion until I see her "for real" at Bompard.
Frank can hint all he wants it won't make Liza skate bad or his own pupil better.

Someone wrote "Frank is wise" among the first comments, I seriously question the wisdom of coming out with tendancious criticism of that sort after a counter-performance by his own student, however true it might be that Liza still skates young, it makes him come across as a bad sport more than as a shrewd politicker.

PS: If the people who say Liza isn't musical are the same as those who think Kerrigan shouldawon in '94, well...

Fashionista
10-31-2011, 11:29 AM
I assume we have to expect the whining and crying vol. 2 from Frank Carroll next weekend, don't we? sometimes I wish his skaters win everything and everywhere just not to hear that trashing bullshit from him. I'd advice him to shut up and instead think about Mirai's physical shape and that trashy free program with non-existent choreography and zero transitions his student has (and that gawd damn awful blue dress which looks like it's two sizes smaller than Mirai is which really makes her look juniorish).

IneZR
10-31-2011, 12:53 PM
Frankly speaking, FC does sound bitter in this interview. Yes, Liza's skating is juniorish, but it was reflected in the PCS, wasn't it? I understand his frustration with Mirai's poor result, but did he really have to bash this cute little girl?

I guess we'll just have to wait and see how she develops in the next few years as a skater, but her jumping technique is truly amazing for a 14-year old. God, how I've missed lutzes that actually look like lutzes, not to mention the incredible height Liza gets on her jumps!

briancoogaert
10-31-2011, 01:19 PM
I agree on everything. I don't know if he really said all those things (interviews, we never know !). But it's just reflection of what happens on the ice.

Sasha'sSpins
10-31-2011, 01:35 PM
I think it's ironic that you said someone else needs to be more mature when you just gave someone else rep for tearing apart another skater and calling them a "cow".

THIS!

gkelly
10-31-2011, 02:05 PM
Am i the only person who thought " why not have different scoring systems for each singles discipline?" I think that it would not be a bad idea to have the women scored more conservatively and limit their triples per program and to keep the mens where it is.

I wouldn't want to limit the triples (beyond the Zayak rule, which applies to both sexes but is more limiting to skaters who have fewer kinds of triples to work with). In fact, I'd like to see the senior ladies given an 8th jumping pass and 15-30 more seconds of program time to work with, and let them fill it with a creative use of double jump(s) if they've run out of triples.

What could be done would be to use the full value of the PCS for the ladies, as for the men, instead of factoring them by 0.8 as is currently the case. That would make the PCS worth more, comparative to jump content, in ladies' skating than in men's. Which would make the results a little more subjective, but in the direction that many people want to see -- rewarding basic skating and presentation more highly, areas that grown young women tend to do better at than young adolescents at the peak of their jumping ability.


But anyway, "like a bat out of hell" should not at all be taken as some kind of insult to Liza - she can rotate like a bat out of hell, after all!

So do bats typically rotate when exiting hell? ;)


Before Michelle, was there another Michelle? Or Yuna or Mao?

What do you mean?

os168
10-31-2011, 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by Vash01

Quite honestly I don't think Lipnitskaya is going to the be the star in 2 years or ever, although I love her skating. In the history of FS, no skater named Julia has had huge success, so the odds are against her.


Quote:
Originally Posted by os168
Before Michelle, was there another Michelle? Or Yuna or Mao?

What do you mean?

Oh I was referring to Vash's tongue and cheek theory about why Julia will never do well in ladies (in a tongue and cheek way) because historically no skaters name Julia has ever had huge success. Well this Julia will be historical and will be successful, pity she just got a popular name.

-------------

Other than that, wow this thread has gone into all sort of weird directions I am beginning to feel sorry for Frank, I mean he is just saying what he think without the PC filter obviously. And he has the right to to express with all his usual zippy snippy grumpy well seasoned politically incentivised undertone of the great coach of the 6.0 era. He can't help for being who he is, that is why press love him and goto him for quote, he can be controversial and appears to still love the game. And actually bit of controversy might not be bad for this sport, since it is getting quite boring with too many let downs (except for Liza).

In a way at his age, at this decades of his career, Frank is just saying what he thinks and heck with the consequences. I mean do you honest expect a Russian coach to say good things about a rival nation student without play down the praise just a bit at some point? It is just sporting rivalry. His comment about her PCS is actually right on the mark, and Liza was marked correctly well within the range.