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Vash01
10-31-2011, 03:27 AM
Frank spoke the truth, but he pretty much said everything bad about Elizaveta and very little good. One off hand comment about like Michelle wonderful jumps not much else..

Is it absolutely true that Elizaveta could grow big time and lose the jumps. Absolutely! Is true that she needs more maturity in her skating. Absolutely!

But its also a fact that Tukts one of the most talented young skaters to come around and awhile, and that most 14 year olds don't jump like Tukt does.

How would Frank like it if Mishin decided to trash Mirai and Mirai's performances/skating. There's plenty to trash there. He could talk about how Mirai was gifted a bit by the technical caller, he could talk about her inconsistency/tendency to give up.

Because you know what Elizaveta may skate like a kid, but in the long program she displayed FAR more maturity, and frankly far more attention to the music than Frank's "mature aged skater did". I've watched Tukt's skating for a few years now (and while her performance was a little muted here I'm sure due to nerves). I've never seen Elizaveta not bother to at least attempt to perform. And I'll take someone who always tries their best. Over someone who can perform but sometimes just chooses not bother.

Something tells me Frank wouldn't be talking this way if he didn't see a threat, and that Frank would also HAPPILY exchange students if he could.

And this isn't the first very good skater that was not Frank's that Frank choose to diss.

I would point out to the Eurosport commentatory where they said that Elizaveta's not yet a woman, just a girl and kind of like a gymnast but also said hey the maturity will come. And praised the girl for her wonderful jumping technique.


If an opinion is considered "truth", we are all telling "truth" all the time.:lol:

I do agree that Frank sees her as a threat and is playing a political game. He is a seasoned coach and knows how to play it.

mrinalini
10-31-2011, 03:27 AM
But its the same for every sport. If your 5-1 basketball isn't really going to be the sport for you. Absolutely if Elizaveta grows to be Cynthia's height or develops big time she'll have issues no doubt. But the thing is its hard to imagine she'll grow THAT tall either given how tiny she is now. (Also reportedly her parents are not very tall). As long as she doesn't grow too tall or to big though Tukts likely going to be fine, because she's not relying on being tiny to muscle jumps.

However most of those girls in that competition didn't jump the way Tukt does now when they were Elizaveta's age.. Which is why to say well she's just little isn't completely fair.

I mean should we have a height requirement in this sport. So yes its perfectly fair to mention puberty, but its also fair to point out that the kid was given technically every chance to make it past puberty. I think its far more fair to talk about those doing poorly done jumps, and getting away with it because they are small. Than to talk about a kid doing well done jumps just being small.

Once again I'm not so sure that she'll be this huge star for sure in the future because of puberty. But it doesn't mean she doesn't deserve praise for what she's good at it. Its not like 14 year olds who can jump like that come around every day in this sport.

I thought we were discussing what Frank said in this article, but you seem to be going off-tangent and ranting on things that Frank (or the article) never even brought up.

Frank said Tuk executes the jumps wonderfully, so no doubt he's giving her kudos for her technique. He didn't say she can do them only because she's so small or hasn't hit puberty. He did say that the older, more physically mature girls are having trouble hitting the harder jumps and combos unlike Tuk, and yeah, I think that Tuk may one day be facing that issue as well even though she has sound technique. Why you insist that we discuss poorly done jumps by small skaters in this thread I'll never know.

The way I look at it, Frank gave Tuk her due and opined on her weaknesses. I happen to agree with all of his comments, and I don't see why he should censor himself when approached directly to talk about Tuk's skating.

os168
10-31-2011, 03:31 AM
At age 14, even Michelle was not a great performer, and she never was a great spinner. Liza has lots of time to work on other aspects of her skating, and she has to work on a lot more since under COP she will have to have great spins, footwork, transitions. Why not give her credit for doing well in her first senior level international competition?For a 14 year old she is awesome!

Quite honestly I don't think Lipnitskaya is going to the be the star in 2 years or ever, although I love her skating. In the history of FS, no skater named Julia has had huge success, so the odds are against her.

:lol::lol::lol: can i take a vcash bet against you :P 2 years Julia will get a ISU gold medal guaranteed, or even at the Olympics.

Before Michelle, was there another Michelle? Or Yuna or Mao?

bek
10-31-2011, 03:32 AM
If an opinion is considered "truth", we are all telling "truth" all the time.:lol:

I do agree that Frank sees her as a threat and is playing a political game. He is a seasoned coach and knows how to play it.

Its absolutely true and I guess its hypocritical to criticize him. But most of us are unknown people on message boards who will never meet Elizaveta (or the skaters). Frank's likely meet this girl and is a famous coach. She will likely hear his words and they matter more. And while he spoke truth he was also harsh in the way he said it. As I said before I doubt Frank would appreciate it if Mishin and the Russians decided to speak "some truths" about Nagasu. And there's quite a lot they could say. In fact instead I do remember people like Orser complimenting Nagasu. Of course they have in the past but still. And this was Elizaveta's coming out party too. Which is also kind of different. He could have at least complimented the kid too for delivering at her first major competition in that fashion. Not a lot of young jumping beans do.

doubleflutz
10-31-2011, 03:33 AM
Whether Tukt can perform is a subjective thing. But many people who have seen Liza live say she can. I actually think Julia is fabulous but I have more questions about her than I do about Adelina and Tukt because at least in the youtube videos, Julia's jumps actually do seem kind of smallish.

It's not just that they're small. Julia muscles them around, is often kind of wild and loose in the air, and doesn't get much ride out on her landings. She doesn't really check out of her jumps so much as fall out of them and manage to save herself anyway. She got a bit better this year, but she's still got a long way to go, and those jumps are pretty much going to have to be re-worked from the ground up at some point or another. Her skating skills are well below Liza, too, and definitely below Adelina. Up to this year, she was completely muscling and digging in for every. single. turn. in her footwork. It was painful. Not what I'd call promising, even if she can dislocate her hip in her Biellmann.

Vash01
10-31-2011, 03:39 AM
Its absolutely true and I guess its hypocritical to criticize him. But most of us are unknown people on message boards who will never meet Elizaveta (or the skaters). Frank's likely meet this girl and is a famous coach. She will likely hear his words and they matter more. And while he spoke truth he was also harsh in the way he said it. As I said before I doubt Frank would appreciate it if Mishin and the Russians decided to speak "some truths" about Nagasu. And there's quite a lot they could say. In fact instead I do remember people like Orser complimenting Nagasu. Of course they have in the past but still. And this was Elizaveta's coming out party too. Which is also kind of different. He could have at least complimented the kid too for delivering at her first major competition in that fashion. Not a lot of young jumping beans do.


I think the Russians will speak some "truths" about Nagasu only if they see her as a threat, and right now I don't believe they do.

Louise
10-31-2011, 03:56 AM
It's not just that they're small. Julia muscles them around, is often kind of wild and loose in the air, and doesn't get much ride out on her landings. She doesn't really check out of her jumps so much as fall out of them and manage to save herself anyway. She got a bit better this year, but she's still got a long way to go, and those jumps are pretty much going to have to be re-worked from the ground up at some point or another. Her skating skills are well below Liza, too, and definitely below Adelina. Up to this year, she was completely muscling and digging in for every. single. turn. in her footwork. It was painful. Not what I'd call promising, even if she can dislocate her hip in her Biellmann.

I am the last person to get on board a 'baby ballerina' wavetrain, but the development I've seen in Julia Lipnitskaya in even the last nine months IMO is incredible and making me a believer. Her 2axel is horrid, it skims and whips like Lipinski's, but overall her jumps are bigger and landed on a better and more solid edge. She also has developed gorgeous posture and flow. I would bet that if Lipnitskaya and TUT competed and both were clean (which so far they have been) that Lipnitskaya would demolish TUT. And LIP is probably also now a couple inches taller and will adjust to her new body more quickly.

It's time for there to be an OGM named Julia. I think we found her. :D

t.mann
10-31-2011, 04:06 AM
How would Frank like it if Mishin decided to trash Mirai and Mirai's performances/skating.

I want. :EVILLE:

And Frank, your girl too is not that matured 'yet'.
She is very much different from Kwan at that age.
Mirai still occasionally is a little juniorish. :EVILLE:

bek
10-31-2011, 04:07 AM
I want. :EVILLE:

And Frank, your girl too is that matured 'yet'.
She is very much different from Kwan at that age.
Mirai still occasionally is a little juniorish. :EVILLE:

Loved it when Plushenko called Evan's 3axel a triple sal. :lol: Even if I didn't love Plush, he really should have screamed it to the rafters... :lol: In fact maybe Mishin should do wait until Elizaveta lands a triple axel and point out that its a better one (and that clip one was) than the Olympic Champion's ever landed in his life.

Asli
10-31-2011, 04:11 AM
IMO Tukhtamisheva is a fantastic talent. :) She is musical - she hits the beat in her step sequences as well as throughout the program and she has a good feeling for music. She is naturally elegant and expressive. Of course she has to work on her ice coverage and on keeping the speed through the step sequences. But other than that, I already find her more interesting and more watchable than the majority of the so-called mature skaters. Plus she has just won a senior GP, which is a major achievement in any skater's career. So it is already happening for her now.

Her jumps are not only fast rotating but pretty high considering her slight build. They aren't all speed and no height like some other skaters'. Hopefully her jumps will gain even more in height as she gets stronger, even though she may not rotate as fast as she does now.

essence_of_soy
10-31-2011, 04:24 AM
IMO Tukhtamisheva is a fantastic talent. :) She is musical - she hits the beat in her step sequences as well as throughout the program and she has a good feeling for music. She is naturally elegant and expressive. Of course she has to work on her ice coverage and on keeping the speed through the step sequences. But other than that, I already find her more interesting and more watchable than the majority of the so-called mature skaters. Plus she has just won a senior GP, which is a major achievement in any skater's career. So it is already happening for her now..

:)

RumbleFish
10-31-2011, 04:34 AM
Tuk has superb jumping technique, and I wouldn't be surprised to see her jumps getting bigger as she grows and improves her power.
Even though her edges don't run that well and choreography isn't great, she certainely is a very impressive young skater.

With Nagasu's skating going absolutely no where, FC should have every incentive to talk her down. If Tuk had been an American, she could be in a risk of getting fined for participating in a senior event despite having a junior-like small body which she unfairly uses to spin fast in the air.

Where is Phillip Hersh when you need him the most? He should be probing whether Tuk's juniorishness should be seriously penalized.

bek
10-31-2011, 04:41 AM
Tuk has superb jumping technique, and I wouldn't be surprised to see her jumps getting bigger as she grows and improves her power.
Even though her edges don't run that well and choreography isn't great, she certainely is a very impressive young skater.

With Nagasu's skating going absolutely no where, FC should have every incentive to talk her down. If Tuk had been an American, she could be in a risk of getting fined for participating in a senior event despite having a junior-like small body which she unfairly uses to spin fast in the air.

Where is Phillip Hersh when you need him the most? He should be probing whether Tuk's juniorishness should be seriously penalized.

Hey Phil has actually had nice things to say about the young Russians as he has about Yu-na and Mao. (In fairness to him).

But seriously though if Tukt were American the USFSA would be doing the happy dance as we speak, crying tears of joy. They'd take anyone of Tukt, Adelina, or Julia. And Frank would certainly be talking different if she was his student. If you compare the allowances he makes for Evan (most musical skater) whereas Kim lacks artistry..

RumbleFish
10-31-2011, 04:56 AM
Hey Phil has actually had nice things to say about the young Russians as he has about Yu-na and Mao. (In fairness to him).

My bad for forgetting to add :P.


But seriously though if Tukt were American the USFSA would be doing the happy dance as we speak, crying tears of joy. They'd take anyone of Tukt, Adelina, or Julia. And Frank would certainly be talking different if she was his student. If you compare the allowances he makes for Evan (most musical skater) whereas Kim lacks artistry..

:lol: at Lysacek the most musical skater.

Regarding Kim, he said something like her being a technically brilliant skater, but not an artiscially brilliant one, IIRC. Which one could either interpret as her being technically brilliant and artistically lacking at the same time.

bardtoob
10-31-2011, 04:58 AM
In Beverley Smith's article about Skate Canada in the Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/more-sports/article2218907.ece), Frank Carroll offers his thoughts about Elizaveta Tuktamisheva. Do you agree or disagree with the following assertions about Elizaveta's skating?

1.) Elizaveta is "a little girl who has very tiny legs and she can rotate like a bat out of hell.. She’s doing triple-triples like nothing while these other girls are more mature and struggling with it."

2.) In her long program, Elizaveta shows "no maturity, looking like she should be in a novice or junior program."

3.) "Elizaveta will have to learn to skate much more like a woman, with maturity." (Not a direct quote, but a view attributed to him in the article.)

4.) "If the judges scored her correctly, they would give her high technical marks, but (she) should be scored at six or seven for the presentation marks." (Not a direct quote, but a view attributed to him in the article.)

5. "Tuktamisheva may turn out to be a marvelous skater, come time." (Not a direct quote, but a view attributed to him in the article.)

Don't forget:


"He’d like to use the word “childish” but feels it’s too harsh."


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


But in a backhanded way after he talked about how tiny she was and could rotate like a bat out of hell...

Frank also said that Mirai skates with speed like a bat out of hell. He frequently uses that term to describe even his own skaters.


That Nagasu has talent isn't a question. She covers the ice quicker and easier than other skaters - "she can go like a bat out of hell from one end of the rink to the other and doesn't know why or how it happened," Carroll said - and has the kind of gorgeous lines that make everything look effortless. Nagasu's education: 'Rebellion' over, Nagasu keeps focus on Vancouver (http://www.universalsports.com/news-blogs/article/newsid=371548.html)