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bek
10-31-2011, 02:13 AM
In the article Carroll referred to Tuktamisheva "executing these wonderful jumps..."

But in a backhanded way after he talked about how tiny she was and could rotate like a bat out of hell.. And in reference to Michelle too.

The way I see it as a federation excitedly introduces their new star (after said federation hasn't had a new star in awhile and a LONG drought), said new star skates well and is the first female skater to win her GP debut, and Frank rains on their parade with mostly criticisms. Its not like the judges were giving Elizaveta huge PCS. She didn't win on those. He could have said she's a good jumper but needs to work on her maturity. But promise for the future.

What's he going to say about Adelina next week? And to be frank once again Elizaveta not being super mature is to be expected.

If Frank's skater had done her job, she would have won here.

os168
10-31-2011, 02:27 AM
I don't know that the article was really all that out of character for Frank. He does have a tendency to give very back-handed compliments skaters who are in competition with his students, and even talk them down a bit. He said somewhat similar stuff about Tara Lipinski back in the day. I appreciate the candor most of the time, because it's usually pretty warranted, but I think he crossed the line a bit with the jump comments. Not in a way that would make me think Beverly Smith was sock-puppeting him, though.

Yeah I agree with that. As much as I respect Frank and his ability as a coach, he is a seasoned professional who know how to play the press/influential game to undermine the main rivals. He used to compliment Yuna Kim at the same time undermine her saying something like she is just a great technician and not much more, which annoyed me a bit, because it is so cheeky and unnecessary (& untrue) :rolleyes:

I happen to disagree with anyone who says Liza doesn't have good sense of music of interpretative skills. IMHO she is one of the most exciting skater come out of Russia, and I prefer her to Adelina by miles. Liza need the right age appropriate material to fully realise her potentials. Her program this year weren't great showcasing of her dancer like talent that i know she is capable of. What she does have is an innate performer quality that is mature for her age, but it is not enough without the right materials like this year's program, her program felt shallow and false despite her best efforts.

Liza has great basics and rightfully has to earn her earn her PCS just like any young prodigies before her, but once given the right material and art direction, her PCS is going to be PCHAN sky high. Personally, I think she along with Julia Lipnitskaia has the greatest potential to dominate the ladies in the next couple of years. Gracie Gold, another one to watch out for, not sure about Agnes, I just don't get her. Li Zi-Jun from China could bring something uniquely ethereal and artistic, though I doubt would be a threat without consistent technical capabilities like the Russian babies, similar with Risa from Japan which I prefer her over Kanako.

Actually even if Liza technical skills had been hindered by her growth spurt, her PCS alone would be a force to be reckoned with.

Mind you, I predicted Mirai would reign this year without Yuna, Miki and Mao - a big questions mark, and it hasn't done me much good lol!

mrinalini
10-31-2011, 02:27 AM
But in a backhanded way after he talked about how tiny she was and could rotate like a bat out of hell.. And in reference to Michelle too.


But that is true. Tuk may have good jumping technique, but I think another reason why she jumps so well now is because she's so small. I'd assume that makes it way easier to get up into the air and rotate higher and quicker. Once Tuk hits puberty, there's no guarantee that she'll maintain her jumps and consistency just because she's got good technique.

ETA: I went back and re-read the article, and apparently Frank did directly reference Michelle in his quotes.

Louise
10-31-2011, 02:27 AM
As much as I loved all of Lulu's programs (and I am the biggest advocate of her programs), I was not a fan of her 94 Olympics LP. As usual for her, it was musical and lyrical and there were a lot of transitions in that program that today's ladies programs don't even have. She did many more clean jumps than anyone else in the competition. But it never really built for me, and it was somewhat sullen. It was kind of odd to be that she decided to keep that LP for two seasons, and it was the only time during her career that she kept an LP for two seasons. But yes, Lulu should have been second though.

Uh oh Smarts and Double Flutz, I made the same argument a month or so ago, and Triple Butz or Flutz or whatever it's name is totally called me out on my criticism of Lu Chen's LP that year. Don't want to start it up again, but I totally agree with your assessment. Hopefully Butz won't see this. I think she/he is Lil Bow Wow since he/she brags that they always perform in front of the Obamas. Anyone knows that Lu Chen did not have a winning LP in 1994 and with her technical content and dance and musical and body awareness she SHOULD have had a winning program. Oksana/Nancy as the only cofavorites? Frankly I can stomach Baiul as OGM for eternity than ever think in this universe Kerrigan could ever get an OGM for LFS. Give her a gold in women's hockey or lacrosse, whatever, but not LFS. And yeah, feck the Chinese fs that refused to let Lu Chen be the champion she ultimately and belatedly became, but by then it was too late.

essence_of_soy
10-31-2011, 02:30 AM
I love seeing new faces on the scene.

Tuktamisheva's skating in Canada was light, confident, charming and effortless. Her win was well deserved.

I can't wait to see how Adelina Sotnikova skates next weekend in China.

IceAlisa
10-31-2011, 02:30 AM
I can't wait to see how Adelina Sotnikova skates next weekend in China.

Oh yes, that should be fun!

miki88
10-31-2011, 02:31 AM
Once Tuk hits puberty, there's no guarantee that she'll maintain her jumps and consistency just because she's got good technique.


That does make sense. Kostner is a good case of a skater having great technique but not the consistency to maintain all of her difficult jumps. I think a skater may have an easier time maintaining their jumps if they have good technique but it is not guaranteed.

bek
10-31-2011, 02:32 AM
But that is true. Tuk may have good jumping technique, but I think another reason why she jumps so well now is because she's so small. I'd assume that makes it way easier to get up into the air and rotate higher and quicker. Once Tuk hits puberty, there's no guarantee that she'll maintain her jumps and consistency just because she's got good technique.

And if I'm not mistaken, Frank made no direct reference to Michelle in his quotes; the writer did. So I'm not quite sure why you're bringing that up.

But its the same for every sport. If your 5-1 basketball isn't really going to be the sport for you. Absolutely if Elizaveta grows to be Cynthia's height or develops big time she'll have issues no doubt. But the thing is its hard to imagine she'll grow THAT tall either given how tiny she is now. (Also reportedly her parents are not very tall). As long as she doesn't grow too tall or to big though Tukts likely going to be fine, because she's not relying on being tiny to muscle jumps.

However most of those girls in that competition didn't jump the way Tukt does now when they were Elizaveta's age.. Which is why to say well she's just little isn't completely fair.

I mean should we have a height requirement in this sport. So yes its perfectly fair to mention puberty, but its also fair to point out that the kid was given technically every chance to make it past puberty. I think its far more fair to talk about those doing poorly done jumps, and getting away with it because they are small. Than to talk about a kid doing well done jumps just being small.

Once again I'm not so sure that she'll be this huge star for sure in the future because of puberty. But it doesn't mean she doesn't deserve praise for what she's good at it. Its not like 14 year olds who can jump like that come around every day in this sport.

doubleflutz
10-31-2011, 02:49 AM
That does make sense. Kostner is a good case of a skater having great technique but not the consistency to maintain all of her difficult jumps. I think a skater may have an easier time maintaining their jumps if they have good technique but it is not guaranteed.

I don't think Carolina's issue is her technique or her size, actually. Up until the last season when she was injured, but well after she'd grown up, she was still uncorking perfect 3-3s and 3-3-3s in practices. I think up until the foot injury that made her stop doing flip/lutz for the 2010-2011 season, it was mostly psychological. Plus, she apparently doesn't like training full run-throughs, which is why she ditched Frank halfway through her year with him and only took from Christa Fassi. But Carolina can still get her jumps around, when she's uninjured and has it together mentally. It's just that she goes insane in the membrane in competition, at least until the judges took the pressure off by showing her she could still win medals with 4-triple skates. But I don't think it's a situation like Mirai or Caroline Z, where they grew and now they have a much harder time getting the jumps around. Or in Mirai's case, where she almost never got them around to begin with.

I mean, I don't think anyone can point to jump technique or puberty as a reason for Tomas Verner's woes, but he trained with Huth too, and had the same consistency issues as Carolina. Then he moved last season to a coach that makes him do full run-throughs, and he specifically attributed that as part of the reason why he was overall more consistent last season than he'd been in a long time. It seems to me like most of Carolina's jump issues are Michael Huth.

Vash01
10-31-2011, 02:50 AM
Frank may have ulterior motives in commenting on Liza, or he may just be answering a question (I have not read the article). Coaches do play political games and Frank cannot be an exception, however. I would let Liza's skating and her development as a skater speak for itself.

Louise
10-31-2011, 03:00 AM
I agree Bek, but TUT only has jumps. Only. She is not a gifted spinner, footworker, performer or anything else. I almost died when some poster wrote that she loves how TUT is always doing something with her hands. WTH? She's hand flicking almost every second, but that has nothing to do with skating, it's so superficial and pitiful.

I will rue the day, but Lipnitskaija is my pick in two years. She has 'it', she has jumps, spins, footwork, performance, style. Sotnikova is also up there. TUT? Please. I'm sure the audience was like "Hmm, we've seen all these women skaters and some scrawny 4'8" jumping bean comes out and only lands her jumps and wins?" Not the best winner IMO. Frank was being polite, but he was only voicing what many were thinking but only nicer.

shine
10-31-2011, 03:00 AM
Ok, so what's the point he is making then? Enlighten me.

That he was interviewed and asked about his opinion on this much talked-about Russian wunderkind, and simply gave his response?

That said, I did think Frank was a little harsh on Tuktamisheva. I definitely don't think she should be in the the novice/junior rank (I guess Frank doesn't really watch JGP :scream:). Her skating is young, but Liza is actually rather polished and skates with command. She doesn't have the interpretive ability of a seasoned senior, but do we really expect a 14-yr-old to be performning masterpieces already? As a competitor, she's already impressive for what she's capable of and definitely belongs to the senior rank.

bek
10-31-2011, 03:15 AM
I agree Bek, but TUT only has jumps. Only. She is not a gifted spinner, footworker, performer or anything else. I almost died when some poster wrote that she loves how TUT is always doing something with her hands. WTH? She's hand flicking almost every second, but that has nothing to do with skating, it's so superficial and pitiful.

I will rue the day, but Lipnitskaija is my pick in two years. She has 'it', she has jumps, spins, footwork, performance, style. Sotnikova is also up there. TUT? Please. I'm sure the audience was like "Hmm, we've seen all these women skaters and some scrawny 4'8" jumping bean comes out and only lands her jumps and wins?" Not the best winner IMO. Frank was being polite, but he was only voicing what many were thinking but only nicer.

Whether Tukt can perform is a subjective thing. But many people who have seen Liza live say she can. I actually think Julia is fabulous but I have more questions about her than I do about Adelina and Tukt because at least in the youtube videos, Julia's jumps actually do seem kind of smallish.

Vash01
10-31-2011, 03:23 AM
I agree Bek, but TUT only has jumps. Only. She is not a gifted spinner, footworker, performer or anything else. I almost died when some poster wrote that she loves how TUT is always doing something with her hands. WTH? She's hand flicking almost every second, but that has nothing to do with skating, it's so superficial and pitiful.

I will rue the day, but Lipnitskaija is my pick in two years. She has 'it', she has jumps, spins, footwork, performance, style. Sotnikova is also up there. TUT? Please. I'm sure the audience was like "Hmm, we've seen all these women skaters and some scrawny 4'8" jumping bean comes out and only lands her jumps and wins?" Not the best winner IMO. Frank was being polite, but he was only voicing what many were thinking but only nicer.

At age 14, even Michelle was not a great performer, and she never was a great spinner. Liza has lots of time to work on other aspects of her skating, and she has to work on a lot more since under COP she will have to have great spins, footwork, transitions. Why not give her credit for doing well in her first senior level international competition?For a 14 year old she is awesome!

Quite honestly I don't think Lipnitskaya is going to the be the star in 2 years or ever, although I love her skating. In the history of FS, no skater named Julia has had huge success, so the odds are against her.

zippy
10-31-2011, 03:25 AM
But in a backhanded way after he talked about how tiny she was and could rotate like a bat out of hell.. And in reference to Michelle too.

Just FYI, "like a bat out of hell" is a common Frank-ism and when he says it, he generally means it as a compliment. He used to say Michelle did this or that like a bat out of hell all the time. Just about anything that is like a bat out of hell to Frank is impressive skating-wise, just like Liza's rotating ability. Yes, her small size definitely helps her rotate fast. I agree with Frank that Liza needs some more speed/power/coverage (which will hopefully come with time). Of course, I do roll my eyes a little bit when I remember him complaining about Michelle's marks at 95 worlds when she similarly skated "small", albeit with wonderful jumps/technique. But anyway, "like a bat out of hell" should not at all be taken as some kind of insult to Liza - she can rotate like a bat out of hell, after all!