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burntBREAD
10-31-2011, 12:54 AM
What did you read?

His comments were spot on, she is immature, SHE'S 14! She can jump better than than girls who already hit puberty and have more mature bodies. As he said, she MAY become a great skater (maybe knowing full well she may not survive puberty) but if she can she will be marvelous. She should have high technical marks and lower PCS, I don't see a problem with his comments.

Thank you.

flowerpower
10-31-2011, 12:55 AM
I was at the event. She needs more ice coverage, but she surprised me with the maturity of her skating. She interpreted the music well, and was confident and polished - she didn't look junior to me. There's more room to grow of course, but I wonder if Frank would say the same things now that the event is over and he has seen both of her programs. She looks to me like a young senior lady with enormous potential (although growth issues could still sidetrack her).

burntBREAD
10-31-2011, 12:56 AM
I am not suggesting anything. I am just questioning the motivation AND the particular questionable choice of words. As you just confirmed yourself. What does anything he mentions has to do with her age or her body? and if it does, what does that mean?
Frank Carroll is developing Patrick Chan's "foot in mouth" desease.

You suggested:

"And the point Frank Carroll is trying to make is what exactly?
Is he implying that skaters of that age and of that complection should not be allowed to compete and/or win at senior level?
Is he suggesting that to qualify for senior competition one must go through a new medical examination prohibiting tiny legs?
Or is he suggesting that 14 y.o skater if allowed into seniors should look like and skate like 25 year old woman?"

Uhh, it's physically easier for a small, slighter (under 5 feet, 70-80 lbs) person to launch themselves and rotate quickly and land? And usually small people are younger? :confused: Maybe that's what he's suggesting.

millipied
10-31-2011, 12:57 AM
I think you're reading too much into the article and quotes. :lol: She is tiny and there's no telling what she'll do over the next few years. Remember the problems Asada had going from 14-19? She skates like a 14 yo, which isn't a bad thing since she's 14. She won the competition fair and square because of her technical skills. Good for her. No one knows what she'll become at this point. Hopefully, she'll keep her jumps as she grows and matures and will be an amazing skater. She's good now; she's not amazing.

I am not saying she is amazing. Hell I am not even a fan. There are at least two more talented junior skaters right now and I am not even talking about senior ladies.
I am just sick and tired of every single comment about Liza, Adelina, Julia, Gracie etc. is pretty much reduced to "blah, blah, blah, lets' just wait and see how they going to gain 100 pounds and grow 5 feet tall". Asada has never been in the same league technically as some of the current juniors talked about and all her current problems are exactly because of the poor technical skills gained at this age. So I do not get the comparison.
Why not compare to Yu-Na Kim?
No, everyone trying to pick poor Mao as an example of what is going to happen.

doubleflutz
10-31-2011, 01:00 AM
I think you're reading too much into the article and quotes. :lol: She is tiny and there's no telling what she'll do over the next few years. Remember the problems Asada had going from 14-19?

Sorry, this is just a load of BS. They are different skaters. Mao Asada had awful technique on her flip, never had a true lutz to begin with, always had iffy rotation on her triple-triple combinations, and messed up her salchow technique by trying to train a quad, which threw off her timing on the triple. Even with all that, a lot of her problems as she got older were due to an increasing scrutinity the IJS tech panels took with full rotation of jumps and correct edge take-offs on lutz/flip, that had not been present when she was a junior and even early in senior. The constant parade of coaching changes certainly didn't help either.

Liza, by contrast, has excellent technique and is already succeeding in getting full credit for rotation on her triple-triples most of the time, and is not getting edge calls on her lutz. If teeny-tiny junior Mao Asada who weighed 70 pounds had competed under the same scrutiny, she would have protocols lit up with <, <<, and e. The situations are not analogous, and anyone who knows anything about jump technique knows that. Frank Carroll knows an awful lot about jump technique, so he's pretty much just ragging on Liza for no reason other than to diminish what she has already accomplished. I admire him a great deal, but call a spade a spade. It's pure trash talk.

Louise
10-31-2011, 01:00 AM
And the point Frank Carroll is trying to make is what exactly?
Is he implying that skaters of that age and of that complection should not be allowed to compete and/or win at senior level?
Is he suggesting that to qualify for senior competition one must go through a new medical examination prohibiting tiny legs?
Or is he suggesting that 14 y.o skater if allowed into seniors should look like and skate like 25 year old woman?

I would have more appriciated if Frank Carroll focused his comments on things like Elizaveta's exquisite technical skills which should be an indicator of her future rather than trying to foolishly and unconvincingly diminish the win of his skater's direct competitor.

OK, will contribute. Princess TUT is not the second coming of Baiul. She has very little sense in music, skates NOTHING like senior except for jumps, she doesn't even have good spins. FC is correctly recognizing that TUT is a junior skater, skating like a junior skater with NOTHING to offer in terms to presentation or choreo. Yeah, she has those weird hand/wrist flits that count as choreo, but TUT has NOTHING to offer to seniors except for 3/3.

I was temendously disappointed in TUT. Sure, she had jumps, sort of, but nothing else.

She is THAT bad.

God bless FC. And no, you don't need to skate like you are 25. Yuna never ever had the presentation that I'd expect of an Oly champ, but she somehow got there and was deservedly the winner.

TUT is all jumps and wrist flits. Not a fan, but could be in a year or five.

Rock on, FC.

gingercrush
10-31-2011, 01:05 AM
Who the hell would want to follow Baiul. She skated like vomit. Her jumps were terrible, she could barely do half the elements properly. What exactly is your point.

What skater would possibly want to follow that cow?

millipied
10-31-2011, 01:07 AM
Who the hell would want to follow Baiul. She skated like vomit. Her jumps were terrible, she could barely do half the elements properly. What exactly is your point.

What skater would possibly want to follow that cow?

LMFAO. Rep.
I think Louise may be 10 y.o judging by writing. Here is someone could use maturity.

burntBREAD
10-31-2011, 01:09 AM
LMFAO. Rep.
I think Louise may be 10 y.o judging by writing. Here is someone could use maturity.

I think it's ironic that you said someone else needs to be more mature when you just gave someone else rep for tearing apart another skater and calling them a "cow".

doubleflutz
10-31-2011, 01:10 AM
Oksana Baiul was the only convincing argument I've ever seen for continuing to keep compulsory figures as part of competition. That said, I still love her skating, three-turns, two-foots and all, and she's my hero for defeating Nancy Kerrigan.

Asli
10-31-2011, 01:10 AM
I am not suggesting anything. I am just questioning the motivation AND the particular questionable choice of words. As you just confirmed yourself. What does anything he mentions has to do with her age or her body? and if it does, what does that mean?
Frank Carroll is developing Patrick Chan's "foot in mouth" desease.

I don't think Frank Caroll's motivation or choice of words can be questioned because of a Beverly Smith article. As in her other skating articles that I have read, she does not mention whether she herself interviewed the person she quotes. IMHO she simply is not a very reliable journalist in terms of misquoting, putting words out of context and sometimes (mis)quoting TV commentary as if she had interviewed the person. If an article of hers contradicts the usual style and character of a skating personality - as in this case - I simply don't believe her, whether the point made in her article is justified or not.

millipied
10-31-2011, 01:10 AM
I think it's ironic that you said someone else needs to be more mature when you just gave someone else rep for tearing apart another skater and calling them a "cow".

I wans't even talking to you.

millipied
10-31-2011, 01:12 AM
I don't think Frank Caroll's motivation or choice of words can be questioned because of a Beverly Smith article. As in her other skating articles that I have read, she does not mention whether she herself interviewed the person she quotes. IMHO she simply is not a very reliable journalist in terms of misquoting, putting words out of context and sometimes (mis)quoting TV commentary as if she had interviewed the person. If an article of hers contradicts the usual style and character of a skating personality - as in this case - I simply don't believe her.

Well, in that case she might be the Arthur Verner of Canadian FS press. Thank god or I can lose all respect I have for FC.

pinky166
10-31-2011, 01:14 AM
All this trash talk of Liza's win by Frank makes me wonder what he thinks about the national title Mirai won in 2008 when SHE was a teeny-tiny jumping bean too...:shuffle:

Just because you're small and physically immature, doesn't make your skating immature. Case in point, when Mirai won the national title in 08. Sure, physically she looked about 10, but her presentation and jumps were great, better than anyone else in the event, so she won. Liza can't help it that she's tiny, and she might stay quite tiny, because there are podium pics up on icenetwork and Akiko and Ashley (both only 5'3) dwarf Liza. If she's that tiny at almost 15, I doubt she's ever going to be that big. I mean look at so many of the pairs girls. Her skating IMO is not juniorish and it wasn't like she had huge PCS anyways, 53 is very fair, mostly mid 6s, which she deserved.

doubleflutz
10-31-2011, 01:14 AM
I don't think Frank Caroll's motivation or choice of words can be questioned because of a Beverly Smith article. As in her other skating articles that I have read, she does not mention whether she herself interviewed the person she quotes. IMHO she simply is not a very reliable journalist in terms of misquoting, putting words out of context and sometimes (mis)quoting TV commentary as if she had interviewed the person. If an article of hers contradicts the usual style and character of a skating personality - as in this case - I simply don't believe her, whether the point made in her article is justified or not.

I don't know that the article was really all that out of character for Frank. He does have a tendency to give very back-handed compliments skaters who are in competition with his students, and even talk them down a bit. He said somewhat similar stuff about Tara Lipinski back in the day. I appreciate the candor most of the time, because it's usually pretty warranted, but I think he crossed the line a bit with the jump comments. Not in a way that would make me think Beverly Smith was sock-puppeting him, though.