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overedge
11-07-2011, 02:22 AM
you're not kidding! on the ladies side, that field is stacked!

But most of the ladies aren't :lol:

Jaana
11-07-2011, 06:59 AM
Jaana - the difference is that you're a fan expressing a (perfectly legitimate) opinion in a forum. Carroll is in a position of power, and he's using it in a calculated way against a 14 year old. It's not something to applaud.

Carroll was asked about his opinion, wasnt he? He did not say anything that I did not see also. Should he just have gushed about everything? I dont think so. He gave her credit where a credit was due. A 14 year old skater was competing in a senior competition. Her age does not give her any slack, in my opinion. Im looking forward with great interest to see how ET faires after a couple of years, when she will be a bit more mature.

Bournekraatzfan
11-07-2011, 07:48 AM
The problem is that not everyone is playing the politics game. For every judge who has heard crititicisms of Elizaveta's skating that might impact his or her marks, other skaters don't get the same level of scrunity? Have the judges yet been given a case for how terrible Czisny, Kostner, and Nagasu's skating is? The politics game isn't fair, because some skaters get the brunt of the criticism and others aren't criticized as much.

very true.

Bournekraatzfan
11-07-2011, 08:00 AM
I agree with Asli about the reliability (or lack thereof) of not only Bev Smith but of other journalists. Misquotes are very common, and certain thoughts/sentiments are often attributed to a person by a journalist...it is difficult to know if s/he actually said what has been written. Also, misinformation can travel in the press.

Perhaps Frank did give her more credit for her superb jumping technique. I agree with others who have pointed out that Elizaveta is a very different skater than Mao, as Elizaveta has been taught proper jumping technique. I really think that increases her odds of beating the puberty monster. and although I did not much care for her programs, I did like her...she just has something that makes me want to watch more of her. I think she actually does have musicality and just needs time and better material that will really utilize her strengths and allow her to explore her artistic identity.

Zemgirl
11-07-2011, 09:43 AM
Carroll was asked about his opinion, wasnt he? He did not say anything that I did not see also. Should he just have gushed about everything? I dont think so. He gave her credit where a credit was due. A 14 year old skater was competing in a senior competition. Her age does not give her any slack, in my opinion. Im looking forward with great interest to see how ET faires after a couple of years, when she will be a bit more mature.
Oh, come on - I wasn't aware that Frank Carroll is under any obligation to answer every question journalists ask him in full. Here's what he should have said: "Congratulations to Liza Tuktamisheva. I have not yet had the time to watch her programs - I'm focused on Mirai right now, and her preparation for her remaining events". The end. It's not his job to evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of Liza, just as it is not Mishin's job to opine about the merits of Mirai, or Jeremy Abbott, or whoever is going against his skaters at the moment.

kwanette
11-07-2011, 10:51 AM
Oh, come on - I wasn't aware that Frank Carroll is under any obligation to answer every question journalists ask him in full. Here's what he should have said: "Congratulations to Liza Tuktamisheva. I have not yet had the time to watch her programs - I'm focused on Mirai right now, and her preparation for her remaining events". The end. It's not his job to evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of Liza, just as it is not Mishin's job to opine about the merits of Mirai, or Jeremy Abbott, or whoever is going against his skaters at the moment.

So Frank should have lied? It's hard to keep up with the "He/she is just being honest rules.." Some skaters are too PC, some are just being honest, some "get lost in translation"...

Zemgirl
11-07-2011, 11:07 AM
So Frank should have lied? It's hard to keep up with the "He/she is just being honest rules.." Some skaters are too PC, some are just being honest, some "get lost in translation"...
He should have diplomatically avoided answering the question - or answered it without criticizing Liza. Neither of which would have been lying. I'm sure it would have been very easy for him, but if he could have done neither, he should have kept his mouth shut.

VIETgrlTerifa
11-07-2011, 04:48 PM
This is seriously being blown out of proportion now.

IceAlisa
11-07-2011, 04:49 PM
^^^This. But it's fun to read in between CoC and NHK.

Vash01
11-07-2011, 05:16 PM
So Frank should have lied? It's hard to keep up with the "He/she is just being honest rules.." Some skaters are too PC, some are just being honest, some "get lost in translation"...

Frank was not testifying in front of a jury, so he did not have to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

The truth is Frank was being political- it wasn't about being 'honest' or 'telling the truth'. A classy thing to do would have been to give a diplomatic answer, praising what she did well, and downplaying the things she had not yet developed, instead of verbally attacking the young skater (saying that she belongs in the Novice ranks is not 'being honest'- it's being political, trying to influence the judges in the future competitions, and using his long history of successful coaching to do that).

If you watch professional sports (other than FS) you will notice that the coaches - When they lose, they usually give credit to the other team, and/or admit that their team did not play well. Frank's skater clearly did not do well. The other skater did, and if he wanted to be honest, he should have pointed that out too, although I am OK with him not mentioning Mirai.

Players get into trash talking but a coach is usually supposed to be the professional, classy kind of guy. Sure, there are examples of them not being that way, but when that happens, they do get criticized, and occasionally fined. Frank deserves the same treatment. He was trash talking, and he is getting some criticism on this board (not that he is going to read it or care for what fsuers think of him).

I have not tolerance for trash talking. I prefer respect and classy, diplomatic answers to questions.

Domshabfan
11-07-2011, 05:29 PM
As many as pointed out, Frank is playing politics and trying to reduce the both +GOE and PCS for Liza with his answers. However, i don't expect Mishin to start talking about Mirai since protocols from COC are already highlighting her numerous problems.personally, i think Mirai was given very high PCS for her performance at COC, she was very slow and lacked maturity in her performance, something Frank pointed out that Liza lacked and Mirai had.

I also think Frank was wrong in giving such answers, can you imagine all the coaches around the world start doing it, that will be a total dog fight... Liza is young and lacks artistry, Adelina Flutzes, Mirai is slow etc... i hope sports doesn't turn into that. I and you can complain about skaters quality but we are not involved with coaching anyone, more importantly it stays in the forum (unless we start creating thread title with bashing someone). If Frank has problems with Liza's mark, he should have raised it with ISU rather than bashing Liza like he did.

Jeb-seminole
11-07-2011, 05:32 PM
I agree too. I hope she does continue to develop as an overall skater. She's young yet-but definately has the potential. Hope the puberty monster doesn't mess her up!

mrinalini
11-07-2011, 06:52 PM
Yes, I'm sure that Chinese or Ukrainian judge is gonna be reading the Canadian paper in which Frank's comments appeared. Or maybe the Canadian federation will start some serious politicking - no complaints about Russian inflation for continued Chanflation. Better yet, perhaps Frank didn't restrict his bitching to that reporter but bitched to anyone who would listen at SC in the hopes that would do Tuktuk in at future events.

Please. The judges will be inclined to be favourable towards Tuktuk no matter what Frank says just as they were sometimes ridiculously so towards Chan and Rochette leading up to Vancouver. And coaches have always made these sort of comments to the press - I remember Carroll and Callaghan having a back and forth leading up to Nagano. I'm sure other coaches/officials have done it, too.

Yes, Frank could have been very PC and declined to comment on Tuktuk (even though I don't consider anything he said to be unwarranted in the slightest), but he's never been like that even with his own skaters and yet most still think he's one of the classiest people in the sport. The reporter probably asked him directly about Tuk and he gave his honest opinions (both positive and negative). He might have even been critical of Mirai and why she lost (which he's been before), but as that wasn't the main thrust of the article, it wasn't included.

And the suggestion that Frank should have complained to the ISU is most inane. He would only do that if he thought Tuk didn't deserve to win (and who does that anyway unless there's some serious discrepancies in the judging), but Frank never said that - he was blunt in explaining why she won but he never said that she shouldn't have.

gkelly
11-07-2011, 07:21 PM
(Ladies filling an 8th jumping pass with double jumps, if allowed)


This would apply to all of the Ladies without a 3A, which is practically all of them, now and historically.

Yes, but that includes double axels.

Historically, before the 7-jumping-pass limit and required axel that was instituted with the IJS well-balanced program rules, it was pretty common for ladies who could do all the non-axel triples but not triple-triple combos to use seven jumping passes for seven triples (five different kinds and two repeats in combination with double toe or double loop) and an eighth jumping pass for a double axel. If an eighth jumping pass were allowed, I think we would see more of that and skaters who can do all the triples but intentionally leave out their least favorite or the one that earns the least points would have incentive to put it back in their freeskates.


I think that the Zayak rule should be applied to first triples only. If there's such a risk that a skater would do two 3T's or a 3T/3T and a 3T/3T/3T, then second triples could be limited to once as second jump.

Worth considering . . . not sure what the results of that consideration would end up being.


I think that Men's and Ladies' programs should have the same program lengths and jumping passes and elements, allowing men to do spiral sequences instead of a second footwork pass and vice versa for Ladies, and for the layback spin to be optional for both genders.

I agree with all this regarding free programs. Layback is not required in free programs -- just a spin in one position.

Would you want to change the short program rules? Maybe take out one of the spins (to allow more time for in-between skating) and make the spin requirements for both sexes
1) spin in one basic position, no change of foot
and
2) combination spin with one change of foot, all three basic positions
and one of the two spins must have a flying entrance?

Vash01
11-07-2011, 08:00 PM
Please. The judges will be inclined to be favourable towards Tuktuk no matter what Frank says just as they were sometimes ridiculously so towards Chan and Rochette leading up to Vancouver. And coaches have always made these sort of comments to the press - I remember Carroll and Callaghan having a back and forth leading up to Nagano. I'm sure other coaches/officials have done it, too.

Yes, Frank could have been very PC and declined to comment on Tuktuk (even though I don't consider anything he said to be unwarranted in the slightest), but he's never been like that even with his own skaters and yet most still think he's one of the classiest people in the sport. The reporter probably asked him directly about Tuk and he gave his honest opinions (both positive and negative). He might have even been critical of Mirai and why she lost (which he's been before), but as that wasn't the main thrust of the article, it wasn't included.

And the suggestion that Frank should have complained to the ISU is most inane. He would only do that if he thought Tuk didn't deserve to win (and who does that anyway unless there's some serious discrepancies in the judging), but Frank never said that - he was blunt in explaining why she won but he never said that she shouldn't have.


Nobody is saying he should have declined to comment. It is normal to comment on your opponent's performance. All we are saying was he was over the top in his comments- more so than I have heard other coaches do- at least those who have similar clout as Frank.

About Frank being the "classiest"? Please..........!!! He is one of the most political figures in FS. Translation: not honest, but the more skilled ones are more diplomatic. His comments were rather crude, even for a politician.