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Vagabond
10-30-2011, 04:35 AM
Because the former is not an international competition with a panel of international judges. National bias and all that.

That's a much weaker argument than the one koolloop and Ziggy were making. The ISU ratified Mroz's jump based on a video, not on the determination of the technical controller (who would likely be relying on a video replay anyway).


The real issue, to me, is why is the ISU ratifying something that happened at a comp they wouldn't have ratified in the past? Something has changed in their thinking and I'd like to know what it is.

Now you're talking! But I don't think the ISU should necessarily be obligated to keep the same standards without regard to technological improvements (particularly with respect to video recording) or other changes that may make it easier to homologate jumps at non-ISU competitions.

ETA: For the record, Adam Rippon attempted a quadruple lutz in his Free Skate at Skate Canada today but severely underrotated it. (4Z<<): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPu8ZyfGquc

Ziggy
10-30-2011, 08:17 PM
I can understand written English, you know. That's pretty much what koolloop, who first brought up the issue, said.

I was referring to what you said.


Just because a minor international competition like the Mont Blanc Trophy can help a skater earn ISU ranking points and meet the minimum score required to go to Worlds and even has judges who have been approved to participate at international competitions does not necessarily mean that there is any greater pressure that would affect a skater's ability to land a jump.

It's a completely different mood and atmosphere than small club competitions.

Such invitational club competitions are mainly organised for the skaters to test waters and get feedback for new programs.


But even if there were, so what? There will undoubtedly be more pressure at this year's U.S. Nationals than at the Golden Spin of Zagreb. Why should the ISU ratify a new jump at the latter but not the former?

Because the latter has an international judging panel, comprised of international judges.

The former has a national panel comprised of judges that needn't necessarily be international judges and as we all know, the calls are less strict and the marks much higher. Because there is a vested interest.


That wouldn't make the accomplishment any less (or more) real than Mroz's quadruple lutz, which he has now landed three times in competition. The ISU obviously understands this.

He landed it cleanly once. Both other landings were with negative GOE, iirc.

And none of the time, it was a real competition. :P


The ISU ratified Mroz's jump based on a video, not on the determination of the technical controller (who would likely be relying on a video replay anyway).

Which sets a dangerous precedent because it's the judges camera which is supposed to count.

Of course in this case, there was no doubt whatsoever. But did ISU think about all the possible implications of this decision?

Vagabond
10-30-2011, 08:40 PM
He landed it cleanly once. Both other landings were with negative GOE, iirc.

I haven't seen any videos or read any reports, so I don't know for certain what his landings were like at Regionals. However, in his SP, as at the Colorado Springs Invitational, he failed to do the intended 3T after the 4Z, so he probably got a mandatory -3 GOE just for not doing any steps. (Of course, he could have both failed to do steps and had a problem with his landing.) In the FS, he was able to do the 3T, so the negative GOE could conceivably have been for the second jump in the combination.

If anyone has seen his skates at Regionals or read any reports about them, feel free to chime in.

Sylvia
10-30-2011, 08:49 PM
I watched Mroz's SP and FS Southwestern Regional videos on IN, and both times he couldn't check the landing on his 4Lz (rotation looked fine) and fell out of the jump.

In his Colorado Springs Invitational SP in mid-September, Mroz reportedly received a 4Lz element score of 14.27 (base value of 4Lz is 13.6) with 3 +1 GOEs.

MacMadame
10-30-2011, 09:10 PM
I
Because the latter has an international judging panel, comprised of international judges.

The former has a national panel comprised of judges that needn't necessarily be international judges and as we all know, the calls are less strict and the marks much higher. Because there is a vested interest.

Judges don't call the elements. The TS does. And at Regionals the TS specialist most likely has been a TS at international comps.

Not that I think that matters... video tape is video tape and, as you said, it was clear in the tape he landed the jump.


He landed it cleanly once. Both other landings were with negative GOE, iirc.

And none of the time, it was a real competition. :P
I'm sorry but Regionals is most definitely a *real* competition, full of pressure. Getting to Nationals in the US has been reported by many skaters to be more stressful than international comps.


But did ISU think about all the possible implications of this decision?
Well that I agree with. I think the ISU should only ratify jumps that happen at their own comps. But apparently the ISU disagrees with us. ;)

vesperholly
10-30-2011, 09:34 PM
I don't think the issue for many is the quality of competition so much as the venue. I know I find it questionable for the ISU to ratify a jump that didn't take place at an ISU-sponsored event. I know in the past we've had reports of skaters landing the first X jump at their Nationals or their qualifying competition and it wasn't counted. I'm pretty sure at least some of those comps were videotaped too.

I know a couple of people have made the argument that there is more pressure at an international comp than a local one, but again, I think that's less about the quality of the competition than about the expectation and pressures put on the skater. I also don't think that's the real issue because whether or not a skater feels pressure is highly individual.

The real issue, to me, is why is the ISU ratifying something that happened at a comp they wouldn't have ratified in the past? Something has changed in their thinking and I'd like to know what it is.

Completely agree with all of this. I find it bizarre that they reached from the sky and picked this ONE skater at this ONE competition and ratified this ONE jump. Did Inoue/Baldwin's throw 3axel count for the ISU when they landed it at Nationals, or did they have to wait until they landed it at the Olympics to get ISU ratification? What about Kimmie Meissner's 3axel, which she only landed at Nationals?

Louise
10-30-2011, 10:30 PM
I agree with the above. But yet now with technology how can Guinness say "X" is the first person EVAH to land this jump (oops, in ISU competition) when all over the internet and news it is shown that someone else landed it before? The record books have to change. Or not. It's controversial. As far as I am aware, Mroz is the first person to ever land the 4lutz in competition. Call it a technology/communication issue.
I have no hope that Adam Rippon will ever get his 4lutz ratified. I'd have rather seen him fall on the UR. Instead it looks like he is comfortable 'landing' the UR lutz.

MacMadame
10-31-2011, 02:13 AM
But yet now with technology how can Guinness say "X" is the first person EVAH to land this jump (oops, in ISU competition) when all over the internet and news it is shown that someone else landed it before?

(a) Guinness is irrelevant.
(b) It's not like videotape was invented last year. This "new" technology has been around forever. Most competition in the US have a videotape service available and have for decades.
(c) There is plenty of proof that other skaters landed the first "whosit" other than the one ISU credited with the jump. We all know Kurt Browning wasn't the first to land a Quad in a competition, for example. Yet, the world goes on.

Louise
10-31-2011, 03:20 AM
(a) Guinness is irrelevant.

(c) There is plenty of proof that other skaters landed the first "whosit" other than the one ISU credited with the jump. We all know Kurt Browning wasn't the first to land a Quad in a competition, for example. Yet, the world goes on.
Who is videotaped landing the first quad in competition? Was it still Sabovcik? Or Boitano? I've never heard of any tapes claiming the first quad in competition before Kurt Browning? I'm intrigued. You know something I don't know.

emason
10-31-2011, 03:47 AM
I find it bizarre that they reached from the sky and picked this ONE skater at this ONE competition and ratified this ONE jump.

As I understand it, they did not reach from the sky and pick this one skate at this one competition and ratify this one jump. USFSA prepared paperwork and hand-delivered it to ISU officials at Skate America in an attempt to get the ratification, and as we know, they were successful.

antmanb
10-31-2011, 09:22 AM
What about Kimmie Meissner's 3axel, which she only landed at Nationals?

Kimmie's triple axel was seriously underotated. If Brandon's quad had been as short as Kimmie's triple axel on rotation, there's no way the ISU would have ratified it in a million years.

JamieElena
10-31-2011, 04:44 PM
Yeah- that was really really odd. He started off saying "it has a different entrance", which it does, but then the whole backwards take off thing, was just a weird statement.

Maybe he is thinking about how you prepare to go into most toe loops and flips by skating forward, and then turn into the entry, but the lutz, you prepare on the back edge. (But most people prepare for salchows and loops by holding a back edge too, and an axel really, even though it takes off forward). So yeah- it was just a weird statement.

I did like that he clarifyied "for me" that he thinks men's skating should be about jumps and tricks. It sounds like he recognizes for others it is about more than that. I mean he trains with Chan right? He's got tricks and artistry, so Mroz surely sees male skaters who believe in the artistry on a regular basis.

Had a casual skating fan talk my ear off last night cause he heard all about this on NPR. The ratio of minutes he was allowed to speak to minutes I was allowed to speak was roughly a million to one. He picked up that this jump was sooooo difficult because it was the only jump you go into backwards. Having not heard the interview, I was like, "huh? no it's not." Which led to his questioning my knowledge of the sport because of course the skater wouldn't get it wrong or say it wrong. I will listen to the interview after I post this. I did watch the Rachel Maddow piece. More than anything, I wish someone somewhere would actually spend more time on really explaining why this jump in particular - as opposed to the other quad jumps that have been landed. Because to the average joe seeing or hearing the news of this is probably saying/thinking to themselves, "Gee, I thought someone had landed a quad before," or "a quad's a quad is a quad," or something akin to that.



Actually, I'm willing to cut Brandon slack on this whole interview. He's still really young and I'm sure he's not used to being interviewed on a scale such as this. He doesn't yet have his "talking points" all worked out, lol.

me too.


I read on ice network that Chan said he thinks the jump should be landed to ISU competition to be ratified so it seems it is not only skating fans opinion.

:watch:



Completely agree with all of this. I find it bizarre that they reached from the sky and picked this ONE skater at this ONE competition and ratified this ONE jump. Did Inoue/Baldwin's throw 3axel count for the ISU when they landed it at Nationals, or did they have to wait until they landed it at the Olympics to get ISU ratification? What about Kimmie Meissner's 3axel, which she only landed at Nationals?

Interesting about the Inoue/Baldwin throw 3axel.

Kimmie's 3axel wasn't the first.

JamieElena
10-31-2011, 05:10 PM
Then your dictionary must be a thesaurus.

Furthermore, the ISU did say the jump did count for the record books, which is why they recognize and think (-logate) the same (homo-) as the organization that ran the competition.

I will point out that the ISU always declared an element "the first in international competition", not simply the first.

^this.

Sylvia
10-31-2011, 05:14 PM
Interesting about the Inoue/Baldwin throw 3axel.

Kimmie's 3axel wasn't the first.
Right, and Meissner's 3A at 2005 US Nationals was under the 6.0 judging system.

From Inoue/Baldwin's ISU bio: http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00005328.htm

Inoue/Baldwin are the first couple to have landed a throw triple Axel in competition (2006 National Championships) and international competition (2006 Olympic Winter Games).

Skittl1321
10-31-2011, 05:31 PM
Then your dictionary must be a thesaurus.

Furthermore, the ISU did say the jump did count for the record books, which is why they recognize and think (-logate) the same (homo-) as the organization that ran the competition.

I will point out that the ISU always declared an element "the first in international competition", not simply the first.

Um, my dictionary is definetly a dictionary. That was one of three definitions listed.

Also- not sure why you are breaking down the root words to me. I'm saying it did count for the record books, so if you want to correct a poster, correct the one I was replying to.

Interesting about "first in an international competition"- I've always heard them count for firsts. That part of your post was useful.