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aftershocks
04-12-2012, 06:55 PM
Also I don't get why people think D/W surpassed V/M technically when three out of three competitions they lost to V/M in TES. Ability to appear skating fast is not really technically superior.


Lol it has it's benefits, though. Sometimes D/W skate so fast it's almost impossible to tell how sloppy they are. It's a good thing the judges in Nice saw through that one. ;)

Why so necessary to dump on D&W if you love Weaver & Poje? I think D&W skate fast with excellent precision. Skating fast with technical precision is very hard to do -- and not many can accomplish what D&W are able to with such consistency.

Weaver & Poje are excellent ice dancers in their own right, and they are not in need of fans tearing down other ice dance teams, IMHO.

I really enjoy Weaver & Poje and I look forward to seeing what they will be dancing to next season. I was recently introduced to the music of the amazing Jeff Buckley. I'd love to see W&P skate to Buckley's Last Goodbye -- perhaps for an exhibition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvVfAT_WY_I&feature=fvwrel

skatingfan04
04-12-2012, 11:10 PM
Why so necessary to dump on D&W if you love Weaver & Poje? I think D&W skate fast with excellent precision. Skating fast with technical precision is very hard to do -- and not many can accomplish what D&W are able to with such consistency.

Weaver & Poje are excellent ice dancers in their own right, and they are not in need of fans tearing down other ice dance teams, IMHO.

I really enjoy Weaver & Poje and I look forward to seeing what they will be dancing to next season. I was recently introduced to the music of the amazing Jeff Buckley. I'd love to see W&P skate to Buckley's Last Goodbye -- perhaps for an exhibition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvVfAT_WY_I&feature=fvwrel

My criticism of D/W has nothing to do with my love of W/P ( realize it's a little misplaced in this thread). I've had issues with their skating since long before W/P were even together. And I never claimed that D/W lacked percision (though the technical pannel at most comeptitions seems to) or speed. It is their level of execution that I feel is not up to par with others, V/M in particular.

Bournekraatzfan
04-14-2012, 07:03 AM
Was listening to the soundtrack of Love Never Dies and heard this and immediately thought of Weaver & Poje.

It is the 'Coney Island Waltz' and would be pretty cool used with a polka for their SD.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgSQDBrDbKk

I rewatched the FD's from World's and W&P's FD is definitely my favourite of this season, followed by P&B.

I really hope they are on the podium in London. I am so there for the FD. Gotta get in touch with my best friend's family to stay at their place but so excited that I will finally be able to see a World Championship live.

Would love to see W&P & V&M on the podium together there.

You are so lucky to be attending worlds! I am sure it will be a wonderful experience!

maybe you should tweet Kaitlyn your choice of music. It worked for that man in Riga. I wonder when we will hear news about their music selections for next season.

I think they waltz beautifully. I was just re-watching their Dr Zhivago FD the other day, and I especially love the waltz sections in that dance. and with the improvements they have made since that time...one can only imagine

can't wait to get more news on these two!

and happy belated bday, Kaitlyn!

zilam98
04-14-2012, 07:31 AM
I have mixed feelings. W/P had much better programs this year than last and have boosted their musical interpretation a lot. They have gotten their levels up and are maxing them out so they are good there. Plus they are so freakin hot, how can you not root for 'em?

But two things concern me:
1. I don't find them to be as adept on the blade as some other pairs in terms of handling complex footwork and choreo. Their edges are deep but they seem to be careful skaters to me. Their twizzles are careful and slow compared to others. They have compensated by upping their musical interpretation.
2. The top 8 or so entries are bunching up in the marks and I'm not 100% sure why. The devil in me thinks it's the gradual process to create a changing of the guard in dance. I say that diplomatically. I don't think we'll see 3 NA teams on the podium in Sochi so something's going to give. I just have a feeling that W/P will be passed and likely by a Russian team if not also by others.


i think the better word for this is tentantive--they look too calculated and not as sure on their blades as teams with stronger skating skills do.

beebee
04-14-2012, 01:57 PM
i think the better word for this is tentantive--they look too calculated and not as sure on their blades as teams with stronger skating skills do.

Couldn't disagree with you more (same goes for Rock2's concerns).

pani
04-14-2012, 02:52 PM
i think the better word for this is tentantive--they look too calculated and not as sure on their blades as teams with stronger skating skills do.

I agree with you. And for me H-D FD and W-P have a lot off common things.
But W-P really improved a lot. Maybe there next step will be show more freedom in there skating.

nuge
04-14-2012, 03:20 PM
i think the better word for this is tentantive--they look too calculated and not as sure on their blades as teams with stronger skating skills do.

This is why I don't think they are suddenly going to leap in front of P/B as some people have said .P/B are smooth and better skaters .

zilam98
04-14-2012, 04:34 PM
Chris on Eurosport was in awe of their performance tonight. He said that one day they will be "unbeatable". And the Eurosport guys have a good history of picking future champions - I remember when they said the same about Scott and Tessa!

it's uncanny how they foresee future champions. i remember their comments about gordeeva/grinkov and anissina/peizerat early in their careers.

aftershocks
04-14-2012, 08:48 PM
My criticism of D/W has nothing to do with my love of W/P ( realize it's a little misplaced in this thread). I've had issues with their skating since long before W/P were even together. And I never claimed that D/W lacked percision (though the technical pannel at most comeptitions seems to) or speed. It is their level of execution that I feel is not up to par with others, V/M in particular.

Meryl Davis and Charlie White are the first ice dancing team to earn level 4s on all their elements. You may not like them or their style of skating, but to characterize them as "sloppy" is pretty "sloppy" and disrespectful of you. Obviously, D/W's "level of execution" (despite being an "issue" for you) is quite excellent. If it were not, there is no way they would have won Worlds last year or challenged for gold again this year. If you ever meet V/M or W/P try telling them about how you think they are more "up to par" than D/W. :cold:


I have mixed feelings. W/P had much better programs this year than last and have boosted their musical interpretation a lot. They have gotten their levels up and are maxing them out so they are good there. Plus they are so freakin hot, how can you not root for 'em?

But two things concern me:
1. I don't find them to be as adept on the blade as some other pairs in terms of handling complex footwork and choreo. Their edges are deep but they seem to be careful skaters to me. Their twizzles are careful and slow compared to others. They have compensated by upping their musical interpretation.
2. The top 8 or so entries are bunching up in the marks and I'm not 100% sure why. The devil in me thinks it's the gradual process to create a changing of the guard in dance. I say that diplomatically. I don't think we'll see 3 NA teams on the podium in Sochi so something's going to give. I just have a feeling that W/P will be passed and likely by a Russian team if not also by others.

Interesting assessment. I agree that W/P have greatly improved this season, but have more to do before they surpass V/M and D/W, especially in terms of technical skills. Definitely, they are smokin' hot. :hat1: Politics, sadly, is always a deciding factor.


I actually think it is Davis & White they are preparing to give the shaft too. I could see D&W experience what Belbin & Agosto did at their 2nd Olympics. I see W&P and 1 or 2 Russian teams passing them by Sochi.

Who knows? That may be the buzz, since D/W were dissed in the marks at Worlds 2012. Being that D/W skated great in both sd and fd, obviously politics was a factor in their marks. V/M were wonderful as well, particularly in the sd, but V/M's fd even with its improvements I did not think was up to the level of their abilities, plus as noted by Eurosport commentators, Scott stumbled very slightly in the beginning of fd and V/M's twizzles were not as fast or as strong as D/W's.

D/W really should not be "shafted" because 3 NA teams swept Worlds last year, due to P/B making an uncharacteristic mistake and losing the bronze to the Shibs. The Shibs also should not have to pay, but they are paying, and will have to work even harder likely just to make top five next year. S/S probably won't get back into the top 5 due to the politics as well as the depth in ice dance, not to mention the Russians' push to recapture the ice dance podium.

You mentioned something about the judges not "allowing" anymore NA sweeps of the podium. Likely the judges were just as surprised as everyone else about the outcome at last year's Worlds in ice dance. It was not planned. P/B were set for bronze, and W/P were not as strong last year as they have since become. The Shibs are very strong technically and performed very well to good programs last season. S/S were targeted politically this season to be marked down, plus their immaturity showed more in the Latin sd (although S/S worked very hard to improve all season -- in the end their focus on improving their Latin expression led to uncharacteristic technical mistakes in Nice).

Next season will likely be a toss-up, based on what kind of programs the top teams develop, how they each perform throughout the season, how much W/P continue to improve over the summer, what happens to P/B in terms of program development and training/ injury issues (hopefully they are finally rid of the "bandages" routine).

IMO, V/M and D/W are at the top of their respective "games" and if both teams stay with Z/S and continue to push each other and come up with unique programs that highlight their strengths and challenge themselves to reach further heights, I don't see other teams beating them. Of course, politics is always the deciding factor in the end. Plus, the "coming up with unique programs" as well as many other factors can affect what might happen. Until we see new programs for all the teams at the start of next season, we can continue speculating.


Luckily, Weaver and Poje are under the "own the podium" program... they are getting financial assistance from the government to help them excel further. (virtue/moir, duhamel/radford, and chan are also under otp)

How wonderful for the Canadians to be supported by their fed and their government. The Canadians with their "own the podium" venture are backing up their politiking with money, and I guess that money helps the U.S. economy since Chan and V/M (their cream of the crop) train in the U.S.

maggylyn
04-14-2012, 09:12 PM
Politics, sadly, is always a deciding factor.

Likely the judges were just as surprised as everyone else about the outcome at last year's Worlds in ice dance. It was not planned.


I think if politics were such a deciding factor the judges wouldn't have been surprised at the outcome of last year's Worlds.

True, politics may sometimes be a factor, but as someone who remembers very well the egregious politiking in ice dance under 6.0, I'm very appreciative of the new judging system. It's not perfect, but so much better and a lot less political.

martyross
04-14-2012, 09:50 PM
and sometimes politics is in the eye of the beholder. :D

Bournekraatzfan
04-14-2012, 11:44 PM
...
But W-P really improved a lot. Maybe there next step will be show more freedom in there skating.

I agree, and I think freedom is a great word in this context. I think that their accomplishments this season will be a major confidence boost for W&P (and I am not just talking about placements but clean/relatively clean performances--they have really improved in terms of how they compete). And I believe that confidence will beget freedom...they'll learn to trust themselves even more and really let go. Their talent combined with their work ethic and desire to improve is a combination for success:)

Bournekraatzfan
04-15-2012, 12:42 AM
Yes, the scoring in ice dance at Worlds differed from some of the scoring we saw earlier in the season (which makes sense given that judges don't always interpret guidelines the same way and teams improve at different rates throughout the season and are supposed to be judged on how they skate that day), but I don't think D&W are being given the shaft by the judges or being dumped for W&P. The callers at worlds were tougher on everyone. D&W received eight marks of 10.0 in their PCS for the FD, only one less than V&M...and the rest of the marks were very close. V&M did not unanimously win any category of the PCS (and D&W hadn't earlier this season either, so I don't understand why the marks at worlds were so shocking--the marks were close all season), and their GOEs were very similar to those of D&W. I love D&W and wanted them to get level 4s on those step sequences, but I didn't think they deserved them in the FD at this event. What we did see was a smaller gap in the marks between the top two teams and P&B + W&P than had previously existed. And we also saw W&P's score nearing the range of V&M at the Canadian Championships. and of course, there is the much-improved C&L who had an awesome season, as well as other strong teams like I&K, B&S and the Shibs (who unfortunately made mistakes at these worlds, but will likely return next season much better because of it) to name a few. Who knows what will happen next season? But W&P are, imo, capable of earning a medal based on their own merits. They are very, very talented.

Something that is so great to see is the growing confidence of Kaitlyn and Andrew. It is evident from the moment they step out onto the ice, and it must be very encouraging for them to see an increase in their scores that reflects the significant improvements they have made to their skating. Remember when they were being written off by some people? Well, they have answered their critics by increasing their speed, strengthening their edgework, and demonstrating greater stability in their positions (note Kaitlyn's core strength), all while taking their performance skills to the next level. I think they have righteously earned all the recognition they are getting this season, and I can't wait to see what they do next season.

aftershocks
04-15-2012, 03:25 AM
Yes, everything is in the "eye of the beholder," especially in figure skating. :)

Last season, the Shibs skated well and had great marks, but honestly who expected them to be on the podium? Who expected P/B to fall on an element and be marked down? Sure "politics" always plays a role, sometimes more, sometimes less. Certainly, politics entered into play big time after NA ice dance teams swept the 2011 podium. I'm sure many of the ice dance judges were spoken to or whispered to regarding the outcome, especially the fact that the Shibs were thought to be "undeserving" of bronze in many quarters... Ahem.

On the bright side, the ice dance competition at Worlds in Nice was so great with most of the top skaters performing excellently. On the down side, subjectivity and politics definitely played a role in the outcome. It simply can not be ignored that Canada was represented on the technical and judging panels while the U.S. was not. Nor can it be ignored that the Russians are pushing hard for podium spots in Sochi, in all disciplines, particularly ice dance, pairs, and ladies. The fact that P/B medaled and Joubert and Amodio placed high in Nice did have something to do with performing before their home crowd. I doubt that Artur Gachinski would have won bronze last year had Worlds not taken place in Russia penultimately.

Obviously, how skaters skate certainly counts, but all skaters know they can only skate their best and then wait in the kiss n' cry to see how they will be judged. Often skaters are surprised at high marks and/ or confused by low marks, or they nod their heads and wait to see if their marks will hold up.

puglover
04-15-2012, 03:40 AM
Wait - Isn't this the Weaver and Poje thread? I hope the fan who suggested "Je Suis Malade" has given him/herself many, many pats on the back. I have no idea how they can can beat the heat of that one, but I can hardly wait for next season. Go Kaitlyn and Andrew!!