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kwanatic
10-19-2011, 10:01 PM
Can you find examples of jumps that had no other errors besides -3 and received -3 GOEs?


Here's a jump (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=DJNAFirwtd0#t=95s) by Haruna Suzuki that was landed slightly tilted forward, yet still received a -3 from a judge. No edge call, no UR...just a little tilted. A few -2s, one or two -1 and several zeros on the GOEs as well. It's all discretion. :rolleyes:

Aussie Willy
10-19-2011, 10:38 PM
I think one of the main problems with the system is the fact that judges have so much discretion; it leaves ample room for bias. Looking at the protocols for a competition, it's obvious to see which judges liked which skater. When you have most judges scoring +1 and +2 GOEs with PCS ranging from 6.25-6.75 yet one judge scores +2 and +3 GOEs and 7.00-7.75 in PCS, it's clear that that particular judge enjoyed that skater more. It's preference and preference is biased. That's why I say until a computerized version of scoring is engineered and put into effect, we will never have a 100% fairly judged competition in this sport.
Well what do you expect with a system that depends on the human element to get a result? Subjectivity does play a part in the result, whether we like it or not. Even judges see things differently and can have debates about what they think is quality or not because they too are human and subject to liking or disliking things. It is like music - some people like Whitney Houston and others like Metallica. Or some people like Romance movies and others like Action movies. You are never going to get the definitive result because there are too many variables.

Human judged sports such as figure skating, gymnastics, diving, dressage, synchronised swimming, plus many others is always open to debate. Is it sport when you can't have an objective measure of performance? It is also a reason why many people think those types of sports shouldn't be in the Olympics.

Aussie Willy
10-19-2011, 10:47 PM
Here's a jump (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=DJNAFirwtd0#t=95s) by Haruna Suzuki that was landed slightly tilted forward, yet still received a -3 from a judge. No edge call, no UR...just a little tilted. A few -2s, one or two -1 and several zeros on the GOEs as well. It's all discretion. :rolleyes:
Actually on first viewing, just going by the video, the judges may have seen a two footed landing too as both feet were very tight together as she actually landed. There is also a bit of ice coming off her blade as she lands which indicates that the landing was not clean.

gkelly
10-19-2011, 10:49 PM
Here's a jump (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=DJNAFirwtd0#t=95s) by Haruna Suzuki that was landed slightly tilted forward, yet still received a -3 from a judge. No edge call, no UR...just a little tilted. A few -2s, one or two -1 and several zeros on the GOEs as well. It's all discretion. :rolleyes:

Thanks for the example. Good to have a specific instance to talk about.

You're talking about the triple flip?

If there's only one -3, then we have to consider the possibility that that judge made a mistake.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/jgpaus2011/jgpaus2011_JuniorLadies_FS_Scores.pdf

A data entry error is possible -- the following element had a fall and a downgrade and all judges gave -3 as expected. It's possible that judge #6 was still entering the GOE for the flip when the loop happened and s/he overwrote the GOE for the flip with the loop GOE and failed to correct it before sending the marks.

It's also possible that that judge did see enough wrong with the flip that s/he thought that -3 was warranted, although the other judges saw less wrong with it.

It's hard to tell from the video, but it looks to me as if the skater may have come down with her free toe on the ice in addition to the landing edge. The sudden slowing of the momentum and readjustment of balance when she hits the ice gives that impression. That's probably what prompted the -1s and -2s from the majority of the judges.

If judge #6 saw more weight on that foot than the other judges or saw more underrotation than the other judges or the tech panel, in addition to the touchdown, that could explain the -3.

Yes, it's an effect of different eyes seeing different details. That has always been an issue with figure skating. Some people's eyes are more attuned to catch certain errors than others' -- judges' more than fans' -- and the angle of viewing can also affect what is seen.

Instant replay and slow motion help everyone see the same thing, if they have access and take time to use it. I don't know if JGP judges get access to video or only the tech panels. Youtube videos are so blurry I wouldn't consider them the final word on anything.

Sensors may help more in the future.

But that applies only to the GOE (and the tech panel calls) and doesn't address the PCS issue, which as I say will always be largely subjective.

gkelly
10-19-2011, 11:00 PM
Well what do you expect with a system that depends on the human element to get a result? Subjectivity does play a part in the result, whether we like it or not. Even judges see things differently and can have debates about what they think is quality or not because they too are human and subject to liking or disliking things.

Right. And subjectivity in this sense is not the same thing as politics.

kwanatic
10-19-2011, 11:53 PM
I have heard that some of those marks are made in error. That was a good example b/c the range of GOEs was so broad (0, -1, -2 & -3). As for me, I probably would have given her a -1, though I do get why a judge may have given a -2. Like Aussie said, it may have looked UR.

IIRC, the judges go by what they see. So if they thought it was a UR jump, that's how they mark it. But that jump was clean (from the protocol). Also, I don't believe the judges know whether or not a jump receives a UR, >, >>, or e. I remember reading that the tech caller doesn't share that info with the them.

It's never going to be a perfect system but at times I do think that the PCS for some skaters is lower than it should be. My best example for this is Satoko Miyahara's PCS from her last event (the one Lipnitskaia won; I can't think of it right now). Though Miyahara is very tiny, her SS and TR are probably the best of any of the junior ladies this season. If you haven't watched her, you should. She's not polished like some of the other girls but if you watch her stroking, in-between blade work and transitions, you can see how advanced she is for her age. Despite these skills, her TR and SS scores were very low next to several of the top finishers who didn't have half as many transitions or difficult movements in between. Nothing upsets me more than when judges don't reward a skater for what they did well. That was definitely one of those instances...

RFOS
10-20-2011, 01:12 AM
IIRC, the judges go by what they see. So if they thought it was a UR jump, that's how they mark it. But that jump was clean (from the protocol). Also, I don't believe the judges know whether or not a jump receives a UR, >, >>, or e. I remember reading that the tech caller doesn't share that info with the them.

Judges do get to see underrotations, downgrades, and edge calls now. That didn't used to be the case, but now it has been brought back. There are specific reductions depending on what the panel does in terms of <, <<, and e, so the judges are supposed to look at that and mark accordingly. With the edge call, it is the judge's discretion whether the edge was "unclear" (GOE needs to be reduced by -1 or -2 but does not have to be negative if there were positive aspects to offset the reduction) or clearly incorrect (GOE needs to be reduced by -2 or -3, and be negative overall). Or I guess they could think it was clearly correct. :shuffle: If it looked OK to them then they could probably find a justification for not going below a 0 because there would have to be some positive aspects to the jump.

Like the "unclear" edge, a < sign requires a reduction of -1 to -2 but not a negative overall GOE, while a << requires a negative overall GOE and a reduction of -2 to -3 like a clearly incorrect edge.

There is a reduction of -1 listed in the table for "lacking rotation" which a judge can take if he/she feels the rotation was not completed even if the jump isn't marked with a < or <<. There isn't a corresponing listing for a perceived edge change that isn't called but the judge could have to use his/her discretion in evaluating the jump (including the takeoff phase) and arriving at the GOE.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/Content/201112EstablishingGOEinSinglesSPandFS(Includes%20P ositive%20Aspects).pdf

Susan M
10-20-2011, 05:09 PM
The ISU can play around with different judging systems from now until forever, but as long as there are judges with ulterior motives who are using those systems, politics will never be eliminated.

After SLC, there was an ISU proposal to completely separate the international judges from their federations. I don't think this idea got past dropping country labels for the "ISU" designation on the judging lists. Individual judges are still beholden to their federations for assignments, so there is still incentive to favor your own skaters and to nudge down their opponents to keep their federations happy. While COP had probably made it harder to manipulate placements than the 6.0 system, it is easy to give +1 vs +2 GOE or to inflate PCS in enough places to create a 5 to 10 point swing in a free skate.

Worse still, the folks who are supposed to be able to objectively and fairly judge programs or call elements are also integrally involved in their federation's development efforts and the advising of individual skaters/teams on their programs.

IMO this means that nearly every judge and most callers are working under multiple conflicts of interest. In other kinds of decision-making forums, people are expected to recuse themselves for less conflict than this. I really think the idea of taking judges and callers out of national control and creating an ISU pool of elite international judges and tech specialists for the senior GP series and major championships, combined with prohibitions on them from working with skaters and coaches of any country (not to mention accepting gifts, food, liquor, etc.) would help produce more independent results.

As for the deal-making style of politics, I don't know.

gingercat
10-23-2011, 11:03 PM
Watching Skate America - here is a perfect example where a computer can do the job.
A Senior lady did all doubles - I thought Two triples are "required elements" She got all -3's and a +1 for a double jump element. Why?

Aussie Willy
10-23-2011, 11:13 PM
Watching Skate America - here is a perfect example where a computer can do the job.
A Senior lady did all doubles - I thought Two triples are "required elements" She got all -3's and a +1 for a double jump element. Why?
Because mistakes happen. The judge could have touched the wrong part of the screen. Or they could have momentarily forgotten that they had to deduct for the lack of a required element. It does happen. They did deduct for the next jump that was meant to be a triple and then a double. That judge will probably get questioned as to what happened at the round table discussion.

Not the answer you probably want to hear but the honest one.

gingercat
10-23-2011, 11:19 PM
Cut and dry should be left to the computer, the points gained and lost can be devastating to a skater and their career. A skater at this level has trained all their lives for those 3 + minutes, opinions are one thing but did it or did not should not be left to human error when a tweek to a computer program can make all the difference.
Just an opinion!

Aussie Willy
10-24-2011, 02:29 AM
Cut and dry should be left to the computer, the points gained and lost can be devastating to a skater and their career. A skater at this level has trained all their lives for those 3 + minutes, opinions are one thing but did it or did not should not be left to human error when a tweek to a computer program can make all the difference.
Just an opinion!
Ummm how else is the computer meant to do it? Someone has to enter the data in in the first place.

But as has been discussed before, and in this thread particularly, it is a problem with any human system which is what judging depends upon. And depending on humans is actually the lowest form of control when it comes to ensuring mistakes don't happen. In not just skating judging but actually all types of things that happen in this world generally. Working in the safety area of my organisation this is something we take quite seriously and I deal with the consequences of human errors every day.

gingercat
10-24-2011, 03:01 AM
I'm sorry I should have been clearer, if the TS makes the determination that there are double jumps / not triple jumps then the computer program could do and automatic -3. Unitl we teach a computer to see Techical skills we will have to rely on humans. When I say cut and dry I am referring to the obvious, not the could be, might be, grey area.

Aussie Willy
10-24-2011, 03:12 AM
I'm sorry I should have been clearer, if the TS makes the determination that there are double jumps / not triple jumps then the computer program could do and automatic -3. Unitl we teach a computer to see Techical skills we will have to rely on humans. When I say cut and dry I am referring to the obvious, not the could be, might be, grey area.
Hmmm I see your point. There are many validation rules that get put into the software and this could be one.

os168
10-25-2011, 01:22 AM
Heh one just have to look at this year's Skate America to know politics is alive and well... don't worry about Carolina Kostner, her favourtism will come back in spades at her next big competition.

Everyone gets their turn, political climates are like musical chairs, every one get their turn. Particularly if they have been underscored (or the illusion of) previously.