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julieann
10-14-2011, 06:15 AM
I say a machine for judging levels of all elements and seeing if the jumps are fully-rotated!! lol

The interview manleywoman did with David Kirby mentions a bar code that goes on the skate to measure height, rotation, speed etc. I don't know if it is something that exists and the ISU doesn't use it (I'm guessing it's not free) or if it's just not usable yet, but it would be great if it worked.

RumbleFish
10-14-2011, 08:36 AM
Any attempt to improve the judging system by introduction of the IJS has gone down the drain the moment they decided to hand out free points to cheated jumps.
Judging at Moscow worlds were embarassing to say the least.

gkelly
10-14-2011, 01:53 PM
I say a machine for judging levels of all elements and seeing if the jumps are fully-rotated!! lol

I'm sure that will come eventually for the rotations etc. and maybe for deciding whether or not a certain move met the criteria for a specific level feature.

Care to invent the technology?


The interview manleywoman did with David Kirby mentions a bar code that goes on the skate to measure height, rotation, speed etc. I don't know if it is something that exists and the ISU doesn't use it (I'm guessing it's not free) or if it's just not usable yet, but it would be great if it worked.

Yeah, something like that.

Deciding what features to give credit for, what even to look for, is a human process, not one that can be delegated to machines.

Furthermore, it's inherently a very political process. Groups of people can argue about what should be rewarded and what shouldn't, but ultimately the decisionmakers need to say enhancement X gets extra points and enhancement Y does not.

Same with setting the values in the original scale of values and then the various adjustments that have been made over the past 8 years. E.g., giving more value to quads is a result of people who think quads should get more value lobbying for that to be the case and then the small group of decisionmakers agreeing by vote or consensus to amend the scale of values.

Even if the judges and tech panels operate completely impartially and consistently and apolitically, they're applying rules that were arrived at through a political process. The process by which rules are arrived at won't change significantly even if machines take over responsibility for applying some of those rules.

"Political" doesn't necessary dishonest in this case. It just means that groups with competing interests present their cases and try to change each others' minds or work out compromises.


Any attempt to improve the judging system by introduction of the IJS has gone down the drain the moment they decided to hand out free points to cheated jumps.

Huh? Cheated jumps receive less value under IJS than they did under 6.0, so this makes no sense. The introduction of the IJS suddenly clamped down hard on cheated jumps and in effect took away points they used to receive; it certainly didn't hand out free points for them.

As of last year, moderately cheated jumps (90-180 degrees) now lose less value than they used to, or than severely cheated jumps. So if you're a stickler for full rotation you can say that the attempt to improve the IJS went down the drain in 2010 by handing out more points to moderately cheated jumps -- bringing the treatment of these jumps more back in line with what it used to be under 6.0. Is that what you're talking about?

Difficult jumps (harder triples and quads) receive some points -- quite a lot for fully rotated quads -- even if they end in falls. (Double and single and downgraded triple jumps with falls receive net negative points including the fall deduction).

Under 6.0, jumps with falls were basically worthless in long program, so it would make some sense to say that "they" decided to hand out free points to jumps with falls. If they're rotated. Not if they're cheated.

skatesindreams
10-14-2011, 03:32 PM
I'm with Sylvia!
I don't think it's possible to completely eradicate "politics"; because, unless you eradicate human judgement from the process, you will always have differences of opinion,

briancoogaert
10-14-2011, 04:27 PM
No. It's absolutely impossible to eradicate such things, as long as there are people involved into judging :P !

PeterG
10-14-2011, 04:59 PM
Has Politics Been Eradicated From Figure Skating?


:lol:

Good one!

kwanatic
10-14-2011, 05:25 PM
Talk about an obvious answer! :duh:

I'd love to know who voted "Yes" :slinkaway

Belinda
10-14-2011, 06:02 PM
There are two issues here. One is home country bias, the other artistic subjectivity. They may cross over, eg where a judge has a personal preference for the artistic style of his/her country/culture/tradition. Regarding home country bias there are academic studies (eg http://www.dartmouth.edu/~ericz/transparency.pdf) based on economic theories. Regarding artistic subjectivity this is a fundamental issue common to all sports which use scoring systems and where artistry is part of excellence. Figure skating has more in common with ballet and opera singing than with speed skating. For ballet dancers and opera singers competitions are only a prelude to a career, not the goal. And no one would talk seriously in terms of eg Pavarotti being No. 1 this year with his Tosca performance beating Domingo who didn't so well in his Otello!

Vash01
10-14-2011, 06:03 PM
There are politics in life- at work, at organizations that have nothing to do with FS, in other sports (ex: NBA, NFL, colleges). It is impossible to completely eradicate politics in life, so how can anyone expect to see it eradicated from figure skating? It may appear more blatant because it is a subjective sport, and because it is international it gets more attention. IMO it is only a microcosm of the society and the time we live in.

So the answer is NO- absolutely not.

lowtherlore
10-14-2011, 06:37 PM
Question to Maofan, Kwanatic and Vash01: Is Asada or Ando a victim or a beneficiary of politics?

The better question would be:
Is political judging good for the sport? Or, is the beneficiary of the political judging better off? Or would she/he be remembered in the long run?

ballettmaus
10-14-2011, 06:44 PM
I think the fact that judges are advised to not make the PCS differ too much from the TES scores and not have too much of a difference in between the 5 components is answer enough, isn't it? Though it's got nothing to do with bias it puts certain skaters at an advantage and others at a disadvantage per order of the governing body of figure skating. :blah:

gkelly
10-14-2011, 07:41 PM
Figure skating has more in common with ballet and opera singing than with speed skating.

This is debatable, depending on the context of the statement.

And the context of the skating being referred to.


I think the fact that judges are advised to not make the PCS differ too much from the TES scores and not have too much of a difference in between the 5 components is answer enough, isn't it?

Where are judges advised not to make the PCS differ to much from the TES scores and not to have too much of a difference between the 5 components?

If anything, I think it's the opposite. All the advice I have seen is in the direction of encouraging judges to judge the PCS independently of each other and independently of the TES.

There is a tendency for judges to keep the 5 components fairly close, and the judge trainers go out of their way to advise judges to judge them each independently.

The way that the "corridor" is evaluated for PCS marks also encourages judges to spread the marks, not to artificially keep them together.

The factors for the PCS were set in such a way that a well-balanced skater at a given level in a given discipline would most likely have similar total TES and total PCS, i.e., that the TES and PCS wouldn't differ too much. That's built into the system. But nowhere that I know of are judges advised to make an effort to keep the totals close. It wouldn't even be feasible for judges to make that effort -- too much math, and second guessing the tech panel's calls, involved to figure out what the TES might be so they could adjust their PCS accordingly.

winterchik
10-14-2011, 08:05 PM
can we differentiate politics and cheats...
I don't have a problem with politics but do have with cheats

peibeck
10-14-2011, 08:23 PM
If anything, I think it's the opposite. All the advice I have seen is in the direction of encouraging judges to judge the PCS independently of each other and independently of the TES.

There is a tendency for judges to keep the 5 components fairly close, and the judge trainers go out of their way to advise judges to judge them each independently.

The way that the "corridor" is evaluated for PCS marks also encourages judges to spread the marks, not to artificially keep them together.


I always get the feeling the judges mark most of the components fairly close is because they are afraid of falling out of the "corridor" and then getting dinged for a review of their skills at the end of the season. :(

It bothers me most when you may have a perfectly decent skater, but perhaps not a medal contendor, who basically has a very good program with lots of transitions and good choreography not marked accordingly. Why not reward them for doing things the system is asking for?

(Of course, needless to say, it bothers me when certain skaters get some ridulous marks for transitions or choreography when all they basically do for the whole program is crossovers except for their foot work sequences.) :lol:

gkelly
10-14-2011, 08:42 PM
I always get the feeling the judges mark most of the components fairly close is because they are afraid of falling out of the "corridor" and then getting dinged for a review of their skills at the end of the season. :(

If that is the case then they haven't paid attention to how the corridor for PCS is evaluated. It's different than the corridor for GOEs and it does not penalize spreading one's marks.


It bothers me most when you may have a perfectly decent skater, but perhaps not a medal contendor, who basically has a very good program with lots of transitions and good choreography not marked accordingly. Why not reward them for doing things the system is asking for?

(Of course, needless to say, it bothers me when certain skaters get some ridulous marks for transitions or choreography when all they basically do for the whole program is crossovers except for their foot work sequences.) :lol:

Yes, I think most judges could afford to spread their marks further for individual skaters. But I don't think the reasons they fail to do so are because they are officially advised not to.

Check out the protocols for Japan Open: http://www.skatingjapan.jp/

Judge #9 is using the components the way we want to see, right?