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essence_of_soy
10-04-2011, 11:09 PM
By this I mean, entering competition on the international stage, do they skate to win, or to achieve a personal best, or simply for the experience.

Of course having said this, regarding training and being exposed to varied coaching standards, everybody's skill levels grow and peak differently during a competitive career.

I found it quite interesting that some skaters who competed on the local scene:

a) rarely watched their rivals or knew what they were doing.
b) rarely watched skating on TV so had no idea what kind of standard they were up against.

You would think you'd want to push yourself at a certain level so that in national or international competition, at least being in line with the rest of the field, wouldn't be a complete embarrassment.

Recently I saw I skater entered at a JGP and the rest of the field were attempting multiple triples, she was struggling with every double.

Rochelle
10-05-2011, 02:35 AM
How realistic are most pre-teens and teenagers? ;)

It's a mixed bag. You get a little bit of everything across all the levels and age groups, in terms of their perspective.

Louise
10-05-2011, 04:25 AM
Depends on whether they are home-schooled or not. In my area there is a group of skaters that are 'schooled' at the rink in between practices. Probably 5th-8th. I think I knew more and could articulate 'more' as a 2nd grader. So no, maybe they are clueless, they are taking the free ride that mom and dad are giving them, but don't you want to shake them and tell them to GET WITH THE PROGRAM!! If you are in 8th and don't have lutz or flip, you need to get your ass in public school and do well enough to get in college. Colleges love figure skaters up to a point until they just gave up their education for a frivolous jaunt. Wasn't that why Kwan, who always talked of Harvard, never in a million years did not get accepted? Not a diss to Kwan, since she is making her mark in graduate school and will be a success for sure, but these 4th and 5th at regionals who have abandoned formal education, FOR WHAT?

And if I see one more skatemom drive up in a baby Hummer, I will scream. At least have the balls to get a real one, you poser...

olifaunt
10-05-2011, 06:10 AM
Depends on whether they are home-schooled or not. In my area there is a group of skaters that are 'schooled' at the rink in between practices. Probably 5th-8th. I think I knew more and could articulate 'more' as a 2nd grader. So no, maybe they are clueless, they are taking the free ride that mom and dad are giving them, but don't you want to shake them and tell them to GET WITH THE PROGRAM!!

:( That's really very sad. The skaters might be realistic but the parents definitely aren't, and they're the ones paying for coaching. You should shake them instead, or hand out some books to their poor kids.

It probably depends on the person. There's a girl who skates for Mongolia living at the bottom of JGP events. She's 14 and has been skating for two years. She's pretty awful, but she said in an interview during the Asian Winter Games that she's glad just to be competing. On the other hand there's Emmanuel Savary, who is 14 and going for a quad and hoping to compete at Sochi. He's a huge talent and I wish the best of luck to him, but in my opinion that's really setting the bar too high. He might overtrain, injure himself, and nix his chances to compete at, say, Pyeongchang (a more reasonable goal) because he's looking too high, too soon.

Oz_sk8ting_mum
10-05-2011, 06:19 AM
I think every skater is different and has a different goal.

For us Aussieís I donít think any of our Skaters would ever go to a JGP thinking they could win, You would know essence_of_soy we donít have the facilityís, time or the funding in this country at this time to produce a win. Iím sure you would find their goals would be much more personal for our kids, A PB at an international event, a clean program under such pressure.

If a skater had to ďbe in line with the rest of the fieldĒ as you suggest skaters in Australia may as well give up now and they should all just start swimming! or do you suggest they don't take the experience when offered and just stay at home?

Iím sure that any skaters who are attending JGP events soak up every moment and take in what the skaters around them are doing, being exposed to competitions like this can only help a skater to want to strive and work harder not matter what level they are at.

Poggi
10-05-2011, 06:36 AM
But whenever you read interviews with skaters, they get asked about what their goal is for the season or some upcoming competition, and most of them say to achieve a PB score on both portions and maybe overall, or they say they want to get all their triples consistent on competition, or they want to "grow as an artist", and things like that. Sure thing, there are some, who want to win and go for that, a few of them will even admit to that, but I guess, apart from the obvious age-thing (you can expect only so much from a pre-teen or a teen or a late-blooming tween) I think they have some knowledge about what they do on what level.

And they might not watch skating *now*, whenever they have their own program to be worried about, even though you hear from a lot of them who actually sits on the stands after finishing their performance, and they definitely did before, when they decided to start skating, and they also get lots of feedback from judges, coaches, federation officials and so on. And I'm sure whenever getting protocolls on their hands they check it out, not only their own scores but that of the leaders too.

lakewood
10-05-2011, 06:41 AM
When YuNa first went to JGP in 2004, there had not been any Korean skater who ever got a medal in a ISU event. So, her seemingly realistic goal was to be around 12-13th. But, she won the first Korean ISU (gold) medal. In an interview after winning, she said she was surprised by her win.

essence_of_soy
10-05-2011, 07:12 AM
I think every skater is different and has a different goal.

For us Aussieís I donít think any of our Skaters would ever go to a JGP thinking they could win, You would know essence_of_soy we donít have the facilityís, time or the funding in this country at this time to produce a win. Iím sure you would find their goals would be much more personal for our kids, A PB at an international event, a clean program under such pressure.

If a skater had to ďbe in line with the rest of the fieldĒ as you suggest skaters in Australia may as well give up now and they should all just start swimming! or do you suggest they don't take the experience when offered and just stay at home?

Iím sure that any skaters who are attending JGP events soak up every moment and take in what the skaters around them are doing, being exposed to competitions like this can only help a skater to want to strive and work harder not matter what level they are at.


I didn't mention Australia specifically, but given that it is small scale sport there with no significant corporate sponsorship or government funding for the athletes, they do have some very talented skaters working towards very specific goals.

Australia has skaters on the junior circuit with all of the doubles including the axel and multiple triples jumps.

So my concern regarding this competition, when the double axel is required in the short, was that the skater simply didn't meet the minimum standard for junior international competition.

Oz_sk8ting_mum
10-05-2011, 07:40 AM
I didn't mention Australia specifically, but given that it is small scale sport there with no significant corporate sponsorship or government funding for the athletes, they do have some very talented skaters working towards very specific goals.

Australia has skaters on the junior circuit with all of the doubles including the axel and multiple triples jumps.

So my concern regarding this competition, when the double axel is required in the short, was that the skater simply didn't meet the minimum standard for junior international competition.

I mentioned Australia because that were I'm from!:P

But your first post said nothing about meeting minimum standards in competition, it talked about skaters being set unrealistic goals by wanting attend and being embarrassing when they were not up to "Your" level of expectation of what they should be doing.
Maybe rephrase the question if that's not what you meant?

You will still get skaters entered who can land a double axle in practice and them miss it in the comp.:).

The Kids are hard enough on themselves without added pressure from the side lines "to feel embarrassed" about what they can achive and as everyone said they seem to all set their own goals about where they are at.

essence_of_soy
10-05-2011, 08:02 AM
I mentioned Australia because that were I'm from!:P

But your first post said nothing about meeting minimum standards in competition, it talked about skaters being set unrealistic goals by wanting attend and being embarrassing when they were not up to "Your" level of expectation of what they should be doing.
Maybe rephrase the question if that's not what you meant?

You will still get skaters entered who can land a double axle in practice and them miss it in the comp.:).

The Kids are hard enough on themselves without added pressure from the side lines "to feel embarrassed" about what they can achive and as everyone said they seem to all set their own goals about where they are at.

The double axel is required, so it's not about meeting my expectations.
This skater simply does not have the double axel, practice or otherwise.

It's more the fault of any association that sends a skater without the necessary skills to compete at the junior international level, when other skaters from that country do.

Oz_sk8ting_mum
10-05-2011, 10:52 AM
The double axel is required, so it's not about meeting my expectations.
This skater simply does not have the double axel, practice or otherwise.

It's more the fault of any association that sends a skater without the necessary skills to compete at the junior international level, when other skaters from that country do.

So now I'm confused.

Do you have a beef over a skater being sent when you feel there is someone more deserving?

bardtoob
10-05-2011, 11:17 AM
If you are in Wasn't that why Kwan, who always talked of Harvard, never in a million years did not get accepted? Not a diss to Kwan, since she is making her mark in graduate school and will be a success for sure, but these 4th and 5th at regionals who have abandoned formal education, FOR WHAT?

I think when Tom Collins was approaching Michelle at 14 but not Karen, the Kwan family got the hint what was in store for Karen, which is why she ended up at Boston University.

Artifice
10-05-2011, 03:41 PM
Young skaters are by definition not realistic. How can it be the other way for a teenager ?
They only get the reality that their parents and coaches want them to know and the reality they believe in. It is more important that parents understand well what's going on.
The skater will believe in what adults make them believe. So it is important that coaches keeps a good degree of objectivity in what they say to parents. But often it's not the case because coaches also need to maintain a certain degree of hope in order to ensure that the skater will remain dedicated to the sport and also to keep the student.
Parents need to know the sport in order to understand the right things, wether the skater has potential or not, and what to do with studies.

Sometimes also the skater himself believes he is better than the reality. I know a teenager, a girl who actually competes at the lowest possible level, who has been skating forever (she is not a late starter), who has almost no hope of reaching the next level of competition. And she still seriously believes that she has "potential", she consciously interprets every remarks (even the bad ones) as hidden compliments or information that she is good. Nobody actually makes her believe she is good. Not her parents who just let her do the sport she likes, and not the coach who actually doesn't make her believe anything. It's just her own personal biaised mind that transforms anything in good meaning for her.
To me she is in total fantasy about herself, she has absolutely no realistic view of herself, but she probably has a certain understanding that she is not what she would like to be and is currently in a process of trying to hide it and compensate by self persuasion of the contrary.
When she grows up she will understand that it's better to accept oneself the way it is, and keep a low profil rather than showing exagerate self satisfaction that hides nothing but demonstrates more of the weaknesses.

Anyway, that is an exemple of how teenages can sometimes live on another planet. Reality doesn't really exist for them, most of the time.

Often it is real good skaters who get the real realistic view, because they are more mature and know what to do to improve. They can work on themselves to improve and keep a certain degree of modesty and work ethic. They always look at what they can improve and don't always play the self satisfaction game. They have a consciousness of their environment and the futur. Sport requires intelligence and many of the good competitors have a superior degree of maturity.

Artifice
10-05-2011, 03:41 PM
Double post

aliceanne
10-05-2011, 06:14 PM
By this I mean, entering competition on the international stage, do they skate to win, or to achieve a personal best, or simply for the experience.

Of course having said this, regarding training and being exposed to varied coaching standards, everybody's skill levels grow and peak differently during a competitive career.

I found it quite interesting that some skaters who competed on the local scene:

a) rarely watched their rivals or knew what they were doing.
b) rarely watched skating on TV so had no idea what kind of standard they were up against.

You would think you'd want to push yourself at a certain level so that in national or international competition, at least being in line with the rest of the field, wouldn't be a complete embarrassment.

Recently I saw I skater entered at a JGP and the rest of the field were attempting multiple triples, she was struggling with every double.

It depends on what you are talking about. Local competition and international competition are two different things. Anyone can enter local competition (even qualifying competitions have non-qualifying events). Some of the kids are just entering because they passed the test and their coach told them too.

I've never seen anyone in my area go to international competition and take it lightly. Their parents have paid a lot of money for coaching, choreography, and costumes, in addition to spending considerable amounts of their own time. They know what the competition is doing.