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cruisin
02-17-2012, 11:39 PM
I don't understand villifying the Italians for something so common in the US. America certainly has plenty of innocent people in prison. Mistakes happen. So does corruption. None of us here know which this is...or whether Amanda is really innocent or guilty. We'll never know, we can only speculate.

First of all, I am not vilifying the Italians. I am Italian and would move to Italy in a heartbeat. I adore the country. And I am usually the first person to defend all things Italian. But, in this case, the police and the prosecutor wanted a conviction. They did not like the way Amanda and her boyfriend were "acting" after the murder, they set their sights on them. The prosecutor was indicted on some other ethics charge prior to this trial. He was known to be dirty. I also think that once this became international news, they were willing to do anything so that they would be right.

And you are 100% right, this does happen here. But that doesn't make it right when it happens somewhere else. It's wrong, no matter where it happens.

loulou
02-17-2012, 11:57 PM
I'll quote some posts, but really almost every post should be quoted: people have bizarre ideas about what happened.

Keep in mind one of the first things the the Knoxs did after Amanda was arrested, was hiring people to do PR in the US, to campaign Amanda as a victim and depict her as a positive figure.

I somewhat doubt they said Amanda already had found herself a dealer in the two months she had spent in Italy.

Also, I can't think of a reason why Italy would be knowingly accusing an innocent american. On the contrary, americans have been quite lucky in Italy in the past - nothing to be proud of on any of the two parts.



Allezfred, do you have a problem with what the Italian police did to Amanda Knox? The four years she spent in prison for a crime she did not commit? Does having compassion for Amanda mean that anyone has any less compassion for Meredith Kercher and her family?

Nobody did Knox anything extraordinary: every time there's a murder (I believe this applies in most of the world) they investigate, maybe have a trial, maybe convict someone maybe not, and that person might or might not be actually guilty or innocent.



I don't think Amanda is profiting off Meredith's murder. She will be telling a story of being falsely accused and convicted of a horrendous crime she didn't commit, of being slaughtered and demonized in the media, and of keeping hope alive that she would eventually be freed from the ordeal. Imagine having your freedom falsely taken away! That is a story to tell.

Applies the above comment.



Do people not think that Rudy Guede is the real murderer? The one who is in jail?

Guede and Amanda were both convicted in first degree trial.

Guede didn't have the means or the friendly net to go through a second and third degree trial, hoping to change the verdict. So he gave those options up in exchange for a sentence discount - which is contemplated by local law.

Guede's sentence, that he is now in jail for, says he was an accessory to the murder Knox and Sollecito committed. Only, Knox and Sollecito are currently free.



Is it generally thought that Amanda actually doesn't know anything about what happened? I just find that so hard to believe, but I'm not really sure why.

The judge who freed her said evidence makes him think Knox and Sollecito know what happened that night, and are not telling.



I don't have a clue what really happened...I also don't have a theory. But I keep wondering why people think the Italian police wanted to crucify Amanda or anyone random who was innocent. Do people really think that the police & prosecutor got together & said "ok, we got the killer but let's see if we can get 2 innocent people to also go to prison for it & let's arrange a plea bargain for the killer to insure the other 2 have a longer sentence than him". :confused:.

Healthy wondering.


-- They are now opening third degree trial, as the second degree sentence was appealed. It's the last one: Knox could still end up sentenced guilty, and Italy knew very well once freed, she would never have been back to serve time, even if found guilty. Wanna bet?

loulou
02-18-2012, 12:16 AM
First of all, I am not vilifying the Italians. I am Italian and would move to Italy in a heartbeat. I adore the country. And I am usually the first person to defend all things Italian. But, in this case, the police and the prosecutor wanted a conviction.

How do you know police and prosecutor wanted a conviction at all costs? It's not the italian style. Expecially if people accused have money, or power, or a powerful government behind them, or all of the above.



They did not like the way Amanda and her boyfriend were "acting" after the murder, they set their sights on them.

How do you know whether or not they liked Knox, that affected their work?

Oh, and Knox was doing cartwheels and making out after MK died. She had been using. She falsely accused an innocent of the murder (convicted in court, time already served). People inevitably form themselves an opinion, but it doesn't mean they'll be unjust.



The prosecutor was indicted on some other ethics charge prior to this trial. He was known to be dirty.

If the prosecutor is accused then he must be dirty, but if Knox is accused she is a victim? What logic is that?



I also think that once this became international news, they were willing to do anything so that they would be right.

Based on what?


-- I don't know whether Knox is innocent or guilty. But I can see Knox's PRs did a great job wiping off any wondering from people's mind.

4rkidz
02-18-2012, 01:31 AM
No, they don't.

well the corner shop that I went to at the end of my MIL street - I would class each and every newspaper a 'tabloid' - it was full of so much sensationalism and 'crap'.. now maybe the hid the real newspapers at the back :shuffle: Seriously all the news agent had were:
-Sun,Mirror,Mail,Express - fair enough I did on the Sunday see a Times (which used to have good crosswords if I remember) ..

I know when I lived there there was the guardian & telegraph?? I'm sure those that want a decent paper likely get it delivered but if your 'average' joe is reading the aforementioned earlier crap - I could imagine what a distorted view of life one would get:confused:

The movies and media shown in North America has been very much pro Amanda (IMHO).. and likely biased as well.. so can imagine the actual truth is somewhere in the middle..

Prancer
02-18-2012, 02:04 AM
-- I don't know whether Knox is innocent or guilty. But I can see Knox's PRs did a great job wiping off any wondering from people's mind.

I actually didn't pay any attention to the Amanda Knox story until it was posted here.

What stands out most to me is the lack of physical evidence. Not that there isn't any physical evidence, but that what there is doesn't point to Amanda or her boyfriend.

Amanda used drugs--check. She was turning cartwheels--check. Her behavior was odd--check. I thought the making out story had been discredited by video, but let's say it wasn't--check. Clearly there are issues with this, but she accused an innocent man of the murder (although maybe she didn't)--check.

To me, all that adds up to a massive "So what?" Even if you believe all this is true, all it proves is that Amanda Knox is a flake. And yet we are supposed to believe that this person, with her erratic behavior, managed to clear away the evidence of her involvement in a violent murder so well that only legally insignificant DNA evidence was to be found?

duane
02-18-2012, 04:58 AM
And yet we are supposed to believe that this person, with her erratic behavior, managed to clear away the evidence of her involvement in a violent murder so well that only legally insignificant DNA evidence was to be found?
It's a good thing Amanda signed a book deal. Perhaps she'll explain her extraordinary talent for being able to distinguish and clear her prints (finger, palm, shoe, foot) and DNA from the crime scene and leave Guede's.

BigB08822
02-18-2012, 05:15 AM
It's a good thing Amanda signed a book deal. Perhaps she'll explain her extraordinary talent for being able to distinguish and clear her prints (finger, palm, shoe, foot) and DNA from the crime scene and leave Guede's.

Nah, she shouldn't put that in the book. Make the millions off the book and then she can charge big bucks and start teaching criminals how to get away with murder. More $$$

DAngel
02-18-2012, 08:31 AM
It's a good thing Amanda signed a book deal. Perhaps she'll explain her extraordinary talent for being able to distinguish and clear her prints (finger, palm, shoe, foot) and DNA from the crime scene and leave Guede's.

Obviously, it's black magic :P

loulou
02-18-2012, 11:41 AM
To me, all that adds up to a massive "So what?" Even if you believe all this is true, all it proves is that Amanda Knox is a flake.

So nothing.

I never linked the opinion people (even prosecutors) are bound to form themselves about Knox to trial sentences. Other people are, and they shouldn't.



And yet we are supposed to believe that this person, with her erratic behavior, managed to clear away the evidence of her involvement in a violent murder so well that only legally insignificant DNA evidence was to be found?

Who says we are supposed to believe. We are supposed to believe nothing. The trial had people who were actually supposed to contribute to the verdict by local laws, based on actual files. Knox and Sollecito both had all the means to defend theirselves (and more: it was reported an underground job going on between the US ambassy and local authorities, which is really inappropriate). Italy doesn't have a history of wanting to make a case and convictions at all costs, expecially when people in question are resourceful. Infact, the other way around is more plausible. Also, Italy doesn't have a history of going after americans - again, maybe the other way around.

Prancer
02-18-2012, 01:24 PM
Italy doesn't have a history of wanting to make a case and convictions at all costs, expecially when people in question are resourceful. Infact, the other way around is more plausible. Also, Italy doesn't have a history of going after americans - again, maybe the other way around.

Perhaps Italy doesn't have that history. But even if you have a thousand years and a perfect record of justice preceding this, it means nothing if this particular case was flawed. Your own appeals court says that it was; your prosecutor says that it wasn't. Clearly there is room here for disagreement.


Who says we are supposed to believe. We are supposed to believe nothing.

Why? People here have, in the past, weighed in on verdicts in other trials. I don't remember hearing a peep of protest about any of them. I could see being concerned about what we all think if, say, we were on a jury, but since we aren't, why are we to refrain from thinking?

cruisin
02-18-2012, 02:56 PM
So nothing. Italy doesn't have a history of wanting to make a case and convictions at all costs, expecially when people in question are resourceful. Infact, the other way around is more plausible. Also, Italy doesn't have a history of going after americans - again, maybe the other way around.

No one is saying that Italy has a history of doing anything. All anyone is saying is that this case was flawed. This case involved an Italian city, prosecutor, police, that doesn't make all Italian cities, prosecutors, police corrupt or incompetent. If this had taken place in the US, France, Germany, or anywhere else, it would be equally wrong. I don't think they "set out" to convict an innocent person. I think they screwed up (big time with the evidence), they were embarrassed and pushed it through to save face. There was also a lot made of the "making out session" after the murder. We have seen footage of that, it hardly looks like making out. Did amanda do drugs? I don't know, but it appears she did. Does that mean she committed murder? Could she have indirectly put in motion the circumstances causing Kersher's death by introducing a dealer into their lives? Possibly, but that does not mean she is to blame.

I feel like we have flip flopped here. It is usually you telling me that Italy is not the Shangri La that I think it is. :)

There are corrupt/incompetent people everywhere. We have our fair share of unfair convictions in the US. And when they are proven to be wrong, there is public outrage. This, because of it being international, got more coverage. No one is vilifying Italy, their police force, or their justice system. This is ONE incident, not a precedent.

Rob
02-18-2012, 04:27 PM
Guede's sentence, that he is now in jail for, says he was an accessory to the murder Knox and Sollecito committed. Only, Knox and Sollecito are currently free.

From what I have read, Guede's conviction is for murder and sexual assault. His sentence was reduced because he agreed to a fast track trial and because of his age/lack of prior convictions/evidence he gave against Knox/Sollecito. I have never read that his conviction was reduced to lesser charges.

One good thing about the book deal - she can pay the man she falsely accused the money she owes him.

taf2002
02-18-2012, 04:41 PM
And that somehow mitigates the situation?

It seems to me that the only error in such cases would be not making more of an issue of the innocent people in prison here. A botched investigation and badly managed trial is still a botched investigation and a poorly run trial, regardless of whether there are other botched investigations and poorly run trials.

Of course it doesn't mitigate the situation. I'm just saying people in glass houses, etc.


First of all, I am not vilifying the Italians.

I quoted your post & my 1st paragraph was in answer to you, the 2nd was not. I have read pretty much this entire thread & there have been many posters who have vilified the Italians.

*Jen*
02-18-2012, 06:45 PM
Allezfred, do you have a problem with what the Italian police did to Amanda Knox? The four years she spent in prison for a crime she did not commit? Does having compassion for Amanda mean that anyone has any less compassion for Meredith Kercher and her family?

She may not have committed murder - the lack of physical evidence would suggest that - but she's not innocent of everything.

When first arrested, Knox pointed the finger at a completely innocent man. Not Guede, but her boss, Lumumba. He WAS innocent, but was nevertheless arrested and interrogated for days before that was proven. The reason Knox's sentence was longer was that she was also convicted of perverting the course of justice, and that charge was NOT removed when she was acquitted. She was released on time already served, but she was found guilty and served a full sentence for that.

Secondly, she's still on trial over allegations that she falsely accused the police of beating her. That's yet to be determined, but from what I've read there is a lack of physical evidence to prove the police DID beat her so she might go down for it - although again, I think she's already served the time on it.

She may not be a murderer, but she didn't spend 4 years in prison for nothing. She's not the angel the media is making her out to be and that $4 million is profiting on a crime. It isn't and probably won't ever be more than $4 million for that reason.

There SHOULD be a lot more compassion for Kercher's family here. They've been utterly destroyed by this, and the Knox family hasn't. Their daughter is alive, she has a future and they've pulled through it quite well. Knowing how flawed the trial was that saw 2 people put away without physical evidence, does no one care that the Kercher's got no justice?


Do people not think that Rudy Guede is the real murderer? The one who is in jail?

I think it was a reference to Lumumba, who Amanda accused at first. With a confession and physical evidence, there's little doubt about Guede, even in the British tabloids.

duane
02-18-2012, 06:52 PM
...does no one care that the Kercher's got no justice?
Flaws and all, the murderer is in prison. What more justice can the family receive?