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kwanfan1818
12-05-2011, 05:50 AM
However, I think people discount how much USFS money helps at the lower levels because skaters aren't getting the money directly. But many are skating on club ice which they pay for at a discounted rate and they are taking USFS tests with USFS judges that were trained by USFS and learning to skate with USFS Learn to Skate programs. They may get grants or awards from USFS too. All that cost money and, if USFS wasn't subsidizing or paying for a lot of it, then skating would be even more expensive.
If the early subsidies were to spread a wide enough net to identify talented young skaters that they trained like the Moscow Choreographic and Vaganova academies train dancers to join the Bolshoi and Mariinsky, and they provided full support, this would be understandable. However, those early subsidies are spread out over thousands of kids to entice them into joining a sport for which to become elite skaters, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars over the competitive lifetime of the athlete, far more than the subsidies they receive, direct and indirect combined, Alexe Gilles included. As Skittl1321 pointed out, the athletes subject to release refusal are competitive internationally, after they have invested in and assumed most of the risk for their competitive careers.

From an institutional point of view, providing the competitive infrastructure and feeding the multi-million dollar business of rinks, coaches, equipment manufacturers and resellers, blade sharpeners, etc. is enlightened self-interest, as it ensures that they stay in existence.

Vagabond
12-05-2011, 04:21 PM
BTW. does anyone know THE reason to WHY the rules say that a Federation has o release (whatever that means) a Skater to skate for another country,rather thn just the Skater simply being able to have the say to the country they WAN to skate for and having it done and over with?

FSWer, when you have some spare time, you should read the ISU's Constitution and General Regulations (http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-203191-220414-166536-0-file,00.pdf), particularly Rule 109, which pertains to switching federations.

The short answer to your question is that the ISU is composed of member federations, not member skaters, and the ISU is set up to protect the interests of its members.

If you look at Rule 109, you'll see that one of the things the ISU is concerned about here (though hardly the only one) is preventing the situation where one member federation poaches the national team of another member federation instead of developing its own team with domestic resources.

Frau Muller
12-05-2011, 05:08 PM
In her situation, it's not qualifying that is the problem. She has skated for the USA internationally before, and thus as Skittl noted above, the USFS has to "release" her to skate internationally for another country. Either that or she has to get Philippine citizenship, which I think would get around the "release" clause.

I find this ironic and, in Melissa's case, sickening that the USFSA won't release her early to skate for the Philippines...as it was USFSA judges who gave her ridiculously low scores at her two most recent Nationals, thus keeping her out of int'l events on following years. So apparently USFSA neither wants her nor wants others to enjoy her talents? Lovely. :shuffle:

maatTheViking
12-05-2011, 06:33 PM
Coming from a country with very few international level skaters, dont under estimate the effects on young kids that the federatioin spend money on its international atheletes, puts on big nationals which get televised and so forth.

few kids in Denmark start skating, because ther is no money for international level atheletes, so they dont go to a lot of events, they dont win, they dont get on television. Dont underestimate the trickle down effect strong federations have; the Danish no. 1 lady for now is half American and probably grew up in the US club environment.

I also think the rules are there so you dont have too many 'fair-federation' skaters - one year you compete for the USA, the next AZE, and the next RUS... that would be odd, I think.

but holding for more than the minimum period for a skater like Melissa seems petty...

RD
12-05-2011, 07:01 PM
I don't get it though. Wouldn't she be unable to compete at worlds 2012 anyway due to the one-year ISU rule on switching countries, since she represented the US in some senior B level comp last year?

I don't think USFS is doing anything to hold her back?

peibeck
12-05-2011, 07:12 PM
I find this ironic and, in Melissa's case, sickening that the USFSA won't release her early to skate for the Philippines...as it was USFSA judges who gave her ridiculously low scores at her two most recent Nationals, thus keeping her out of int'l events on following years. So apparently USFSA neither wants her nor wants others to enjoy her talents? Lovely. :shuffle:

:wall: They cannot release her early. It is a one year waiting period due to ISU rules of when she last competed internationally for the USFS. They could decide not to release her next year, but I cannot forsee a reason why they would choose not to agree to the release.

Plus I hardly see where she signifantly 'wuzrobbed' the last two seasons at Nationals.

Rob
12-05-2011, 07:33 PM
So, after reading Rule 109, is the following correct?

Melissa competed for the US at Nebelhorn in September 2010 so she could compete in (i) international competitions that are not ISU championships starting after September 2011 (theoretically, but she missed the fall Bs and GPs), and (ii) ISU Championships starting after September 2012. Does she still need the USA release as well? Or is she already a Philippine citizen and that gets her around a release. The rule isn't entirely clear on that.

Sylvia
12-05-2011, 07:58 PM
Kaitlyn Weaver/Charles Clavey competed in 2 JGPs for the USA in the fall of 2005 and, 12 months later, she competed with Andrew Poje in 2 JGPs for Canada. Weaver never medaled on the JGP, unlike Bulanhagui, and that may be why Melissa's release to skate for the Philippines doesn't start until May 2012. She received her Philippine passport in October 2011.

oubik
12-05-2011, 09:57 PM
Kaitlyn Weaver/Charles Clavey competed in 2 JGPs for the USA in the fall of 2005 and, 12 months later, she competed with Andrew Poje in 2 JGPs for Canada. Weaver never medaled on the JGP, unlike Bulanhagui, and that may be why Melissa's release to skate for the Philippines doesn't start until May 2012. She received her Philippine passport in October 2011.

Sylvia, there are and always have been different rules for singles and pairs/ice dance. The later have to sit out a year and could ask for a release and Clearance Certificate anytime in the year, also only one of the skaters has to be citizen of the member represented.

Single skaters have to sit out a year for international events (which means October 2011 for Melissa) and 2 years (aka 24 months, which is October 2012) for ISU Championships. But the question is if Phillipines Federation has asked for her Clearance Certificate before the July 1st 2011. In other case they have to wait until (or before) July 1st 2012. Only if special circumstances occured (like receiving nationality and Phillipine passport) should change this and they can ask in the middle of season. But generally, if Melissa is not a citizen of PHI yet, I could hardly imagine she can provide "papers" to the ISU she is living in Manila (or other PHI city) for a year before the federation have asked for Clearance Certificate at least (which would meant stamp from PHI authority or police department in her US passport dated June 30, 2010 - pretty impossible, that season she was still skating for and in the USA).

I think this case has nothing in common with the USFSA and those attacks against the federation are unreasonable. This rule has been set for many years and is called Soldatova rule, because of her traditionally switching countries couple of times through one season :lol:. My feeling is this is a good rule. Look at athletics and those Quatar track team fulfilled from the Kenyan, Etiopiansīs etc. Also, remember Fraser - Lukanin who have seen Baku only once from the airplane going to NHK in Japan. There have to be some rules.

Sylvia
12-05-2011, 10:05 PM
Sylvia, there are and always have been different rules for singles and pairs/ice dance. The later have to sit out a year and could ask for a release and Clearance Certificate anytime in the year, also only one of the skaters has to be citizen of the member represented.
Thanks for clarifying about singles vs. pairs/dance.