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Prancer
09-09-2011, 04:05 AM
She had massive singing talent and she was sexy, but it was her singing talent that made her who she was. It was a different time. Now, post-Madonna/MTV, you're right. Singing talent is secondary.

But it's not like singing talent was always been the deciding factor before. Annette Funicello, anyone? (Disney has been at this game a long time)

I can't think of an era in my lifetime or immediately before when there weren't popular singers whose singing talent was secondary.

UGG
09-09-2011, 04:16 AM
But it's not like singing talent was always been the deciding factor before. Annette Funicello, anyone? (Disney has been at this game a long time)

Marylin Monroe to name another. She had basically zero talent. if she was normal looking she would not have even had a career....(hence the transformation from Norma Jean)

This shizz was going on wayyy before Madonna.

Southpaw
09-09-2011, 04:29 AM
You know, I don't really get your point, especially since the majority of Madonna fans are women and gay men. Perhaps people like feeling sexy and she emboldens people to do that? Is there anything wrong with that?

My point is precisely that. She used sex to her great advantage and that's why she was so successful. Debbie Harry flirted with it just before Madonna came along, but Madonna took it and ran with it. Madonna hit at just the right time. She was post-disco and she threw sexuality out there onto the landscape just as the AIDS crisis hit when people needed to be talking about sex and being honest about it and she had MTV at her disposal. She always advocated safe sex. She has admitted that she didn't always practice it, but she endorsed it. Remember when the whole WHAM! "Choose Monogamy" trend was big at the time? Her thing was "You don't have to be mongomous, just don't be stupid about it."


And then back to your original point, not all superstars last 25 years based on old fans. There's actually not a lot that can sell out arenas the way Madonna does.

But maybe that's because ticket prices are so damn high now? When I was a teenager in the 80s, back in Madonna's heyday, an arena show cost a few dollars. They're not a few dollars anymore. Who can actually afford these ticket prices today? Well, people with jobs, most likely. That would be the old farts. Like me. Except I wouldn't shell out a few hundred to see Madonna, but plenty of other people would. I don't think I would shell out a few hundred to see anybody, honestly. But that's me. Now if a gay man said "Hey Southpaw, wanna go see Madonna with me, my treat!" I'd jump all over that. I think that if ticket prices were more in line with the reality of people's budgets then a lot more bands would be filling arenas.

Have you been to a Madonna show lately? What does the crowd look like? That's a sincere question. I went to a Duran Duran show a few years ago and it was nothing but old farts like me. Are a lot of younger people at a Madonna show? Where are they getting the money for those ticket prices?


I'm not really sure you have a point other than not liking Madonna, which is fine, you don't have to like her. But fans of hers are not necessarily horny teenagers or old farts...and they can be intelligent and still like pop music.

:lol: Did I say anything about intelligence other than referencing a person's stoopid youth? Because come on, all teenage youths are stoopid. That's the nature of the beast and why we hold them in such high esteem and listen to music that makes us remember the good ole days when we were young and stoopid. :D

I'm not arguing against Madonna I'm just saying hey, things changed because of Madonna. And I'm writing about what I've seen that changed because of Madonna. Not really trying to argue any points for or against her, I'm just discussing an American cultural phenomena and its lingering effects.

And believe it or not, I like Madonna's music. Always have. Liked her from Holiday on. I never dressed like her but I liked her music. Her personality? Not so much, but I'm pretty sure she can live with that. Just a hunch but I don't think she registers very high on the empathy scale, and I think that was a tremendous asset for her to have achieved her commercial success.

But I'm not talking about Madonna's music so much as why it is that she's an 80s American icon who endures. Donald Trump is an American icon who endures. Why? Because of his combover?


And some of them like hydrangeas, even if Madonna doesn't.

Hydrangeas rule. Madonna doesn't know what she's talking about. ;)

VIETgrlTerifa
09-09-2011, 04:32 AM
I think young people tend to be the biggest concert goers in general as they have always been the demographic that spends the most for popular music. Madonna sells out arenas/stadiums. Her latest tour (2008-2009's Sticky & Sweet Tour) was the highest grossing/capacity tour that year and I believe she broke a record with it. You can't do that with a niche fanbase.

UGG
09-09-2011, 04:34 AM
Southpaw I went to Madonna's concert in 2004 (It was the Reinvention Tour) and her fan base was all over the place. Lots and lots of young people and many older people as well. I would say though, most people that I saw were in their late 20's like I was at that time.

Southpaw
09-09-2011, 04:36 AM
OK, someone needs to cough up some dough and take me to a Madonna concert so I can check out the crowd and formulate my sociological theories in greater depth. :lol:

UGG
09-09-2011, 04:38 AM
My point is precisely that. She used sex to her great advantage and that's why she was so successful. Debbie Harry flirted with it just before Madonna came along, but Madonna took it and ran with it. Madonna hit at just the right time. She was post-disco and she threw sexuality out there onto the landscape just as the AIDS crisis hit when people needed to be talking about sex and being honest about it and she had MTV at her disposal. She always advocated safe sex. She has admitted that she didn't always practice it, but she endorsed it. Remember when the whole WHAM! "Choose Monogamy" trend was big at the time? Her thing was "You don't have to be mongomous, just don't be stupid about it."

But that was Madonna taking advantage of the times. Not her fault no one else thought to do so.

VIETgrlTerifa
09-09-2011, 04:38 AM
OK, someone needs to cough up some dough and take me to a Madonna concert so I can check out the crowd and formulate my sociological theories in greater depth. :lol:

Watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilI3tOsGJ6k

:D

UGG
09-09-2011, 04:40 AM
OK, someone needs to cough up some dough and take me to a Madonna concert so I can check out the crowd and formulate my sociological theories in greater depth. :lol:

LOL. Her concert was amazing. She is really amazing on stage. i never felt so uncool after seeing her hahah. her stage presence is something.

Southpaw
09-09-2011, 04:42 AM
But that was Madonna taking advantage of the times. Not her fault no one else thought to do so.

Right. So if it were Mary Jane Fancypants from Detroit who thought of it first then we'd be sitting here talking about her and her hatred of pretty flowers right now instead of that Ciccone girl.

UGG
09-09-2011, 04:45 AM
Right. So if it were Mary Jane Fancypants from Detroit who thought of it first then we'd be sitting here talking about her and her hatred of pretty flowers right now instead of that Ciccone girl.

No. i don't think Mary Jane Fancypants would have had the same impact as Madonna over a 25 year span. :lol: She would not be worthy of a flower discussion. And even if she thought if ot first, Madonna would have done it better LOL.

Vagabond
09-09-2011, 04:56 AM
How much are you expected to tip in the US?

It's 10% in Europe but I guess in US it's much more because the minimum wage is very low (or doesn't exist?) and wait stuff make a lot/most of their earnings through tips?

Regardless of what was posted between your question and mine, here are the facts you need to know:

1. In every country I have been to in the EU, bill (we Americans say "check") you get at a restaurant includes not only the actual price of the meal but also the VAT (Value Added Tax).

2. In most European countries I have been to, a service charge is included in the bill, but people often pay an additional tip if the service is average or better. In certain countries, the United Kingdom being one, there is no service charge, and the tip is extra.

3. In most American states, there is a sales tax, and it is applicable to restaurant checks. The rates vary by state, and in some states, individual counties have their own sales tax. The sales tax is charged on top of the stated price in a menu. Therefore, if you go to a restaurant (in a jurisdiction where there is a sales tax) and order food that costs $27.00 on the menu, you will actually be charged more than $27.00.

4. Because the sales tax is not part of the "raw" charge for food and drinks consumed and because the sales tax varies from state to state (and sometimes county by county), tipping is calculated on the pre-tax total, though some people ignore this and tip based on the post-tax total.

5. Many years ago, the Internal Revenue Service instituted a rule that imposed income tax based on 8% of the actual receipts a waiter (or waitress) brought in. As far as I can tell, this rule no longer exists. Waiters are required to report their actual tips, even if they are in cash.

6. Regardless of what anyone might want to say, there is no hard and fast rule about the tipping percentage. Some believe that a tip should be 10-15%, depending on quality, others 15-20%, and others have a rock-solid base value.

7. Different cultures have different views of waiters, and, as a result, the quality of service varies. In the U.K., "service" has pejorative historical associations, and even waiters often subscribe to these views. As a result, the calibre of service is often not so great. In Argentina, for example, being a waiter is a profession and the tip is not included in the billl, and the quality of service is therefore very high. In the U.S., even if someone does not intend to remain a waiter for the rest of his life, he generally understands the importance of getting a job recommendation, and, as a result, the standard of service is generally rather high.

8. Celebrity has its own price. I once heard an interview with Tom Hanks in which he said that he had been pretty much required to accept a limousine ride of about a mile to go from his home to some awards ceremony. (It may have been the Oscars, but I'm not sure.) He said that he expected to give the driver a $20 tip, but the driver expected $100.

The takeaway from this should be that there is no hard and fast rule, and that anywhere from 10 (or less) to 20% (or more) is appropriate, depending on the circumstances.

gkelly
09-09-2011, 05:10 AM
Which is funny because she was parodied by Forbidden Broadway when she was (stunt)cast in Pirates of Penzance on Broadway. Basically, they said she had to fake her notes and needed tons of back-up vocalists, microphones, and amplifiers. They even called her "Poor Warbling Star."

Just goes to show you how subjective these things are.

I saw the production in Central Park, before the Broadway run.

My impression, as a non-expert audience member, was that Ronstadt's voice was strong in the low range and she did surprisingly well with the coloratura parts but was practically inaudible in the middle range.

Wyliefan
09-09-2011, 01:09 PM
She did it on Broadway before it was filmed. Anyway, apparently a lot of it is Broadway trickery. They have pit/off-stage singers hidden from view and microphones that amplify one's voice...ask Michael Crawford in Phantom of the Opera.

Bad example. Michael Crawford has a stunning voice -- I've attended a couple of his live concerts. Microphones don't give you a voice if you don't already have one!

Holley Calmes
09-09-2011, 01:25 PM
Just imagine using the word "coloratura" in ANY way associated with Madonna. Sure, Linda might not have been the perfect opera singer, but is being an opera singer the only criteria for being an artist? I think not. I linked to her "Songs of My Father" as an example of her artistry, to me, and that isn't opera. One could argue that Madonna is an artist, but I put her far down the scale...I think of her as an entertainer, which is a fine thing to be.