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Ziggy
09-09-2011, 01:47 AM
How much are you expected to tip in the US?

It's 10% in Europe but I guess in US it's much more because the minimum wage is very low (or doesn't exist?) and wait stuff make a lot/most of their earnings through tips?

Southpaw
09-09-2011, 01:50 AM
How much are you expected to tip in the US?

It's 10% in Europe but I guess in US it's much more because the minimum wage is very low (or doesn't exist?) and wait stuff make a lot/most of their earnings through tips?

15% to 20% depending on where you are and how generous you want to be. 20% is not considered generous in NYC, it's standard.

When I waitressed I made $2.10/hour, not sure what the going rate is nowadays.

VIETgrlTerifa
09-09-2011, 01:56 AM
How much are you expected to tip in the US?

It's 10% in Europe but I guess in US it's much more because the minimum wage is very low (or doesn't exist?) and wait stuff make a lot/most of their earnings through tips?

Federal minimum wage does exist, and at times states have their own minimum wage standards that go above that. However, waitstaff are paid less than minimum wage because they get most of their earnings through tips.

UGG
09-09-2011, 01:56 AM
Right. And it was Madonna who made that possible because Madonna (and her limited vocal talent) was in the right place at the right time. I doubt she would have gone very far without MTV pushing her writhing body down a canal in Venice in a wedding dress. If she had to rely on vocal talent alone, as Linda and Aretha did, then she wouldn't have made it very far past "Holiday." That song was going to get people dancing no matter what.

Would there be a Linda or an Aretha post-Madonna? Dunno. Doubt it. I remember all the flack Ann Wilson was getting when she put on a lot of weight because it didn't make their videos look good.

There was a hair band in Jersey back in the late 80s/early 90s and they were getting huge and they got signed to a label. They were just about to make it. And then Kurt Cobain and his dirty flannel shirts came along and that was the end of that. If those kids had caught their break just a couple of years earlier they would have been big. But Kurt screwed it all up for them. They never went anywhere after Smells Like Teen Spirit came along. Right place, wrong time for them. And thus ended the era of the Headbangers Ball.

Then Kurt died and we got the Spice Girls in his place. :lol:

Madonna does not have a power belting singing voice, but she can sing and she is entertaining and she knows how to sell albums. You need all of that to be successful. Sex appeal alone would not keep her as relevant in the music industry as she is. There are obviously more layers to her than her Erotica album otherwise she would not be who she is today. talent alone does not get you anywhere, sadly. Cindy Lauper was much more vocally talented than Madonna and while she is still an icon of the 80's, she is not the icon Madonna is. everyone knows who Madonna is. Not to be mean but I would venture to say people born after 1988 would have no idea who Linda is. I am 34 and I am 100% sure I have friends who would have no idea who she is. Not saying she is not talented but just making the point that a nice voice alone does not guarantee anything in music.

Look at women like Christina Aguilera and Mariah Cary and others who ARE very talented. They are still extremely sexual and controversial in their videos (well... christina more so as far as being controversial than Mariah, but she still dresses like a hoe all the time). In the music industry, jut having a good voice basically gets you nowhere if you want to be a pop star.

VIETgrlTerifa
09-09-2011, 01:58 AM
I disagree with this. Madonna does not have a power belting singing voice, but she can sing and she is entertaining and she knows how to sell albums. You need all of that to be successful. Sex appeal alone would not keep her as relevant in the music industry as she is. There are obviously more layers to her than her Erotica album otherwise she would not be who she is today.

Erotica got a bad rap at the time, but I think it's a lot more appreciated today. I listened to it way after all the controversy and I think it's a damn-good album (though it does run long and the house beats may get repetitive to the point where the song "Rain" sounded like a God-send).

danceronice
09-09-2011, 01:59 AM
How much are you expected to tip in the US?

It's 10% in Europe but I guess in US it's much more because the minimum wage is very low (or doesn't exist?) and wait stuff make a lot/most of their earnings through tips?

20% is considered normal for good service. US minimum wages are not bad (it's not MEANT to be a living wage, and it also varies by state--what flies in New York or MA would never work in Wyoming or Arkansas--most of our states are bigger than most European countries and farther apart, with wildly disparate costs of living) but servers don't get minimum. They get "server minimum", which is sometimes less than half that, with the assumption that they'll make up (and usually surpass) state minimum. At least in Massachusetts, where I am familiar with the restaurant regs, if a server doesn't make up the difference in tips for a shift, the employer is REQUIRED to make up the difference to state minimum. Usually at our place, though (the Melting Pot, a franchise) the servers were pocketing $200-400 a shift, well over what they'd have made in one night on wages. They keep the whole thing, while the kitchen staff is hourly ($10-12 an hour. I vaguely remember getting some sort of benefits, but not much.) The restaurant's required to track it for tax purposes but I'm sure in some places it's easy to pocket tips, especially the cash, and never report the income. The wage-only people get FICA and income taxes taken out, making real takehome closer to $8. (Whenever you see an hourly US wage, it's almost always before taxes, much of which are deducted before the check goes to the employee. I get over a thousand per year taken out for Medicare and Social Security--I can't access any of that and since the systems run at deficit I won't ever get it back as they'll be bankrupt by the time I'm 65--a few hundred for federal income tax, and some states and employers take state income taxes out of the paycheck as well. If you're getting cash tips, a sneaky person could pocket it without reporting and avoid all those and the year-end tax, too.)

Ziggy
09-09-2011, 02:49 AM
Federal minimum wage does exist, and at times states have their own minimum wage standards that go above that. However, waitstaff are paid less than minimum wage because they get most of their earnings through tips.

Thanks for clarifying that.

I can't speak for all the European countries but I think that in most (all that I know anyway), you aren't allowed to pay people below the minimum wage because of tips. Hence tipping is lower as a result. 10% is the norm.

And a lot of places automatically add a 10% gratuity onto the bill anyhow.

VIETgrlTerifa
09-09-2011, 02:53 AM
Thanks for clarifying that.

I can't speak for all the European countries but I think that in most (all that I know anyway), you aren't allowed to pay people below the minimum wage because of tips. Hence tipping is lower as a result. 10% is the norm.

And a lot of places automatically add a 10% gratuity onto the bill anyhow.

Many restaurants add an 18% gratuity for larger parties. After working at a restaurant and having family members who work at restaurants, it's usually better that way because the probability of getting stiffed by large parties is bigger than one expects.

UGG
09-09-2011, 02:59 AM
Erotica got a bad rap at the time, but I think it's a lot more appreciated today. I listened to it way after all the controversy and I think it's a damn-good album (though it does run long and the house beats may get repetitive to the point where the song "Rain" sounded like a God-send).

Oh I actually love Erotica. I just think it was madonna's worst time as far as her critics and the album was considered a "flop" for her standards. there are so many great songs on it though.

And not for nothing (unrelated to Erotica LOL) I HATE when people lump Madonna in with Britney Spears. Britney spears. They are so different its not even funny.

Southpaw
09-09-2011, 03:12 AM
Sex appeal alone would not keep her as relevant in the music industry as she is.

Aerosmith, even after alllllllll these years, is still chugging along and still playing stadium shows. Is that because the music they are creating is relevant, or is that just because there are still plenty of people out there who are willing to part with their dollars for a few hours of fun? It's true, Madonna still has plenty of fans who are willing to pay money to see her for a bunch of reasons. They still like her, she takes them back to their stoopid youths, her shows make them happy. Younger people want to see her because they're intrigued, she's a legend. It's the same with any major artist/band. Bruce Springsteen, same thing. He's still making music but I think its artistic relevance is debatable. I think his years of relevance are behind him and now he enjoys success because, well, he's Bruce. He'll fill an arena no matter what. Madonna will fill an arena no matter what. U2 will fill an arena no matter what. I also that Madonna endures because there are so many female pop singers out there who follow the Madonna business model that there's really no getting away from her.

Would 25 year-old Madonna stand out in a post-Madonna world? No way. She'd just be one of many and would have to change her name to Lady Gaga to get any significant attention. I don't see Gaga selling out arenas in 25 years like Madonna still does, though. But we'll see. Yes, unlike Madonna Gaga writes her own music that sounds good now, but does it have staying power? I don't think so. She lifts a LOT from 80s music, anyway. I think if she has any success in the future it will be as a throwback act because that's essentially what she is right now.


Not to be mean but I would venture to say people born after 1988 would have no idea who Linda is. I am 34 and I am 100% sure I have friends who would have no idea who she is. Not saying she is not talented but just making the point that a nice voice alone does not guarantee anything in music.

Oh, I'm quite sure that kids of a certain generation and younger and below have no idea who Linda Ronstadt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbjsMGyZVDw) is. I brought her up because before Madonna, she was one of the big female pop stars. Linda was huge. Madonna grew up with Linda Ronstadt's music on the radio. She had massive singing talent and she was sexy, but it was her singing talent that made her who she was. It was a different time. Now, post-Madonna/MTV, you're right. Singing talent is secondary. By today's post-Madonna standards she would be considered overweight in that video above, but she wasn't back then. Guys went berserk for her.


Look at women like Christina Aguilera and Mariah Cary and others who ARE very talented. They are still extremely sexual and controversial in their videos (well... christina more so as far as being controversial than Mariah, but she still dresses like a hoe all the time). In the music industry, jut having a good voice basically gets you nowhere if you want to be a pop star.

Yep, and they are both products of the post-Madonna world. Adele is, too, but she's the anti-Madonna. And people are wondering if maybe she's going to turn the tide back to a time when it was the voice that counted more than the image, but I don't think that's going to happen. I think the music industry knows they have a captive audience in horny teenagers and they'll keep capitalizing on that. It's a winning formula, why should they stop? There will never be a lack of horny teenagers who want to see naked chicks or be naked chicks. Just get a hot body and Autotune will do all the rest.

VIETgrlTerifa
09-09-2011, 03:31 AM
Yes, unlike Madonna Gaga writes her own music that sounds good now, but does it have staying power? I don't think so. She lifts a LOT from 80s music, anyway. I think if she has any success in the future it will be as a throwback act because that's essentially what she is right now.

Just a correction, Madonna did write her songs. True she didn't write Like a Virgin or Material Girl or Borderline, but she wrote Lucky Star and Holliday and most of her tracks on her first albums. From True Blue on Madonna co-wrote and produced all the songs on her albums. Also, it's been said that despite her bad behavior, Madonna's professionalism and involvement in the music studio has been complimented by her co-producers and the likes of David Foster.

hydro
09-09-2011, 03:32 AM
Yep, and they are both products of the post-Madonna world. Adele is, too, but she's the anti-Madonna. And people are wondering if maybe she's going to turn the tide back to a time when it was the voice that counted more than the image, but I don't think that's going to happen. I think the music industry knows they have a captive audience in horny teenagers and they'll keep capitalizing on that. It's a winning formula, why should they stop? There will never be a lack of horny teenagers who want to see naked chicks or be naked chicks. Just get a hot body and Autotune will do all the rest.

You know, I don't really get your point, especially since the majority of Madonna fans are women and gay men. Perhaps people like feeling sexy and she emboldens people to do that? Is there anything wrong with that?

And then back to your original point, not all superstars last 25 years based on old fans. There's actually not a lot that can sell out arenas the way Madonna does. I'm not really sure you have a point other than not liking Madonna, which is fine, you don't have to like her. But fans of hers are not necessarily horny teenagers or old farts...and they can be intelligent and still like pop music.

And some of them like hydrangeas, even if Madonna doesn't.

cruisin
09-09-2011, 03:39 AM
Which is funny because she was parodied by Forbidden Broadway when she was (stunt)cast in Pirates of Penzance on Broadway. Basically, they said she had to fake her notes and needed tons of back-up vocalists, microphones, and amplifiers. They even called her "Poor Warbling Star."

That's puzzling, Linda Ronstadt was in the film version of Pirates of Penzance. There was no voice over. She has an amazing voice.

VIETgrlTerifa
09-09-2011, 03:41 AM
That's puzzling, Linda Ronstadt was in the film version of Pirates of Penzance. There was no voice over. She has an amazing voice.

She did it on Broadway before it was filmed. Anyway, apparently a lot of it is Broadway trickery. They have pit/off-stage singers hidden from view and microphones that amplify one's voice...ask Michael Crawford in Phantom of the Opera.

UGG
09-09-2011, 03:56 AM
You know, I don't really get your point, especially since the majority of Madonna fans are women and gay men. Perhaps people like feeling sexy and she emboldens people to do that? Is there anything wrong with that?

And then back to your original point, not all superstars last 25 years based on old fans. There's actually not a lot that can sell out arenas the way Madonna does. I'm not really sure you have a point other than not liking Madonna, which is fine, you don't have to like her. But fans of hers are not necessarily horny teenagers or old farts...and they can be intelligent and still like pop music.

And some of them like hydrangeas, even if Madonna doesn't.

Agreed.

There is no other female pop star who has had the career of Madoanna. She did something right. She is talented-just not in a conventional way and many people have a problem with that because she expressed her sexuality.

Aerosmith was used as an example and they are good but they exploited women in most of their videos so nit sure what exactly the difference is, in the long run. Or maybe I did not get the point. I did not actually get the Bruce Springsteen point either other than all three have been able to maintain their fan base. that is not easy.