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Rob
09-08-2011, 09:18 PM
Isn't pane e coperto just a different way of pricing a meal? The a la carte meal price in Italy does not include the cost of bread and washing table linens and utensils. So it is charged to the customer. It is also charged to the customer in the US by including it in the meal price. It isn't really free anywhere.

A waitress shout out to Julie Kavner and Rik Ocasek (the Cars) -- total pleasures to serve and HUGE tippers. The good ones should get recognition too.

Southpaw
09-08-2011, 09:23 PM
Britney and Madonna are selling their sex appeal, their music is nothing without it.

Right. And it was Madonna who made that possible because Madonna (and her limited vocal talent) was in the right place at the right time. I doubt she would have gone very far without MTV pushing her writhing body down a canal in Venice in a wedding dress. If she had to rely on vocal talent alone, as Linda and Aretha did, then she wouldn't have made it very far past "Holiday." That song was going to get people dancing no matter what.

Would there be a Linda or an Aretha post-Madonna? Dunno. Doubt it. I remember all the flack Ann Wilson was getting when she put on a lot of weight because it didn't make their videos look good.

There was a hair band in Jersey back in the late 80s/early 90s and they were getting huge and they got signed to a label. They were just about to make it. And then Kurt Cobain and his dirty flannel shirts came along and that was the end of that. If those kids had caught their break just a couple of years earlier they would have been big. But Kurt screwed it all up for them. They never went anywhere after Smells Like Teen Spirit came along. Right place, wrong time for them. And thus ended the era of the Headbangers Ball.

Then Kurt died and we got the Spice Girls in his place. :lol:

hydro
09-08-2011, 09:34 PM
Right. And it was Madonna who made that possible because Madonna (and her limited vocal talent) was in the right place at the right time. I doubt she would have gone very far without MTV pushing her writhing body down a canal in Venice in a wedding dress. If she had to rely on vocal talent alone, as Linda and Aretha did, then she wouldn't have made it very far past "Holiday." That song was going to get people dancing no matter what.

Would there be a Linda or an Aretha post-Madonna? Dunno. Doubt it. I remember all the flack Ann Wilson was getting when she put on a lot of weight because it didn't make their videos look good.

There was a hair band in Jersey back in the late 80s/early 90s and they were getting huge and they got signed to a label. They were just about to make it. And then Kurt Cobain and his dirty flannel shirts came along and that was the end of that. If those kids had caught their break just a couple of years earlier they would have been big. But Kurt screwed it all up for them. They never went anywhere after Smells Like Teen Spirit came along. Right place, wrong time for them. And thus ended the era of the Headbangers Ball.

Then Kurt died and we got the Spice Girls in his place. :lol:

I'm really failing to understand your logic, or misplaced angst about Madonna. So if Madonna was there in the right place at the right time thanks to MTV, then shouldn't your angst be going to MTV?

I mean, there were a dozen teeny-boppers at the time selling their sex appeal and pop music on MTV at the time. Madonna was pretty much the only one to make a 20+ year career out of it.

VIETgrlTerifa
09-08-2011, 09:37 PM
Not only that, but it's not as music was made up of entirely homely-looking people pre-MTV either. A lot of artists used their looks and sex appeal in order to sell records way before MTV. Let's face it, popular music sales are geared towards the younger demographic...bands/artists that young teen girls/boys can swoon over and/or want to emulate because they have been the biggest market since the invention of recorded music. That and the fact that children tend not to like the music of their parents are the constants of music consumerism.

Also, yes, Madonna used the music video medium to further her career and has been successful at that more than most (or all) of her contemporaries, but all of that, though arguably necessary, is not sufficient to explain her longevity.

Southpaw
09-08-2011, 09:42 PM
I'm really failing to understand your logic, or misplaced angst about Madonna. So if Madonna was there in the right place at the right time thanks to MTV, then shouldn't your angst be going to MTV?

Actually, after I wrote all that I started wondering who was it, really? Was it Madonna, or was it the Eville Viacom? I think they're two sides of the same coin and simply enjoyed and prospered from their symbiotic relationship. Kinda like Democrats and Republicans, Wall Street and Congress, Hot Dogs and Liverwurst. No, scratch the liverwurst. There's just no other side to hot dogs, I'm afraid. They stand alone in glory.

PDilemma
09-08-2011, 09:43 PM
Agreed VIETgrlTerifa.

I'm a child of the 80s. I remember Madonna coming on the scene. It is a time that changed pop music and it became more image oriented (it wasn't the first time it was image oriented...it just became a larger factor). But the blame goes to MTV, the record companies and the entertainment media. Madonna was more or less a creation of all of theirs to suit the times. Not saying she wasn't independent and did not have her own ideas--but she was (to borrow a Paul Simon title) "born at the right time". Who makes it in pop music is (and nearly always has been) manipulated by the industry. After all...the industry created the Monkees long before the Spice Girls et al.

VIETgrlTerifa
09-08-2011, 09:49 PM
To quote the Simpsons: "The Monkees weren't about music, Marge. They were about rebellion, about political and social upheaval!" ;)

Southpaw
09-08-2011, 09:50 PM
Also, yes, Madonna used the music video medium to further her career and has been successful at that more than most (or all) of her contemporaries, but all of that, though arguably necessary, is not sufficient to explain her longevity.

Her longevity is from her "great business sense" for which she's constantly complimented. Nevermind Madonna, why the hell is Gene Simmons still around??? KISS was a band that relied heavily on theatrics and image. I lurved me some KISS, I was in the KISS Army when I was 7. But that was 1976. It's 2011. Why the hell is old fart Gene Simmons on television? Well, because he's exploiting the reality TV trend to get himself out there and he's a shameless self-promoter and self-marketer. He admits that freely. Madonna probably learned a few tricks from him. KISS wasn't about making great music, it was about creating a vehicle to pull money out of people's pockets. When he saw Ozzy do his show years ago he immediately wanted to jump on that bandwagon. I remember reading an article where he basically said "My life's interesting. I can do that reality schtick, too. Who wants to make a deal with me?"

It ain't art, it's commerce.

cruisin
09-08-2011, 09:56 PM
Isn't pane e coperto just a different way of pricing a meal? The a la carte meal price in Italy does not include the cost of bread and washing table linens and utensils. So it is charged to the customer. It is also charged to the customer in the US by including it in the meal price. It isn't really free anywhere.

In most restaurants, in Italy, it is incorporated into the cost of the meal. It is in the bars where the coperto is most noticeable. Most places like that don't have linens and the tiny spoon you get at the counter is the same as the one you get at the table. And there is no pane served. I understand that they want to charge a bit more for you to sit at a table, it's how much more they charge. Don't get me wrong, I love, love, love Italy, I just find the coperto amusing.

But, my earlier point was that the coperto is not a tip, the waiter doesn't get it, the establishment does. So, if you're in Italy, you would leave a tip (if you choose to) in addition to the coperto.

PDilemma, I agree about the Monkees. They were the first totally created for a market based band. I suppose Davey Jones had some talent, he was a child actor (Oliver). Mickey Dolenz was a child actor as well, but not a singer. They were mediocre. And from what I've read Michael Nesmith was a real shit, making back door deals and excluding the others.

olympic
09-08-2011, 10:09 PM
The Lady Gaga/Madonna comparison regarding their fans doesn't sit right. Was Madonna always a bitch to her fans, even at the beginning? Because Lady Gaga isn't exactly an established artist of 25-some years yet. Not that established musicians get a pass to be a pill, but it seems many stars are fairly appreciative at the beginning.

....

Michael Musto of the Village Voice said that when Madonna used to play the Downtown club scene around '81, she was quite nasty to everyone and this was pre-fame

Holley Calmes
09-08-2011, 10:20 PM
I don't think Madonna and Britney are in the same league as Linda Ronstadt. Britney and Madonna are selling their sex appeal, their music is nothing without it. Singers like Linda Ronstadt and Aretha Franklin are selling their vocal ability. Their weight is irrelevant.

YES! Britney and Madonna can deliver pleasing and fun music. I have nothing against them. Linda Ronstadt had major pipes. If I had to choose between being a vapid airhead like Britney, or a vulgar publicity hound who can perform well like Madonna-or Linda with a voice from heaven whether she was too fat or whatever...I'd take Linda. I would rather be Linda than either of those other two. Linda was a "real" artist to me. The rest are pop stars. Vapid 'n Vulgar. Take your pick.

Loved Linda's album of Mexican songs....forgot what it's called.

Edited : ok..

http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1095493/a/Canciones+De+Mi+Padre.htm

Select any sound bite below for one hell of a voice.

Southpaw
09-08-2011, 10:34 PM
Linda was a "real" artist to me. The rest are pop stars. Vapid 'n Vulgar. Take your pick.

But Linda WAS a pop star, I remember hearing her on the crackly AM radio in the station wagon. :D That just goes to show how the standards of "what makes a pop star" have changed post-MTV (or Madonna). Sure, there are always going to be those novelty groups that pop up here and there. The Village People come to mind. I lurved The Village People when I was a kid, but would I have loved them as much if they weren't wearing those awesome costumes? Those costumes SPOKE to my 8 year-old mind. Maybe if I were 40 when the Village People came out I wouldn't have been so much in lurve with them and I would have been shaking my cane and saying they're no Andrews Sisters.

allezfred
09-08-2011, 11:18 PM
Yes, it's a rip off. Most of the time people don't stay long enough to practically double the price of the beverage/food.

So have your cappucino at the bar then. Problem solved. ;)

VIETgrlTerifa
09-09-2011, 01:00 AM
YES! Britney and Madonna can deliver pleasing and fun music. I have nothing against them. Linda Ronstadt had major pipes. If I had to choose between being a vapid airhead like Britney, or a vulgar publicity hound who can perform well like Madonna-or Linda with a voice from heaven whether she was too fat or whatever...I'd take Linda. I would rather be Linda than either of those other two. Linda was a "real" artist to me. The rest are pop stars. Vapid 'n Vulgar. Take your pick.

Loved Linda's album of Mexican songs....forgot what it's called.

Edited : ok..

http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1095493/a/Canciones+De+Mi+Padre.htm

Select any sound bite below for one hell of a voice.

Which is funny because she was parodied by Forbidden Broadway when she was (stunt)cast in Pirates of Penzance on Broadway. Basically, they said she had to fake her notes and needed tons of back-up vocalists, microphones, and amplifiers. They even called her "Poor Warbling Star."

Just goes to show you how subjective these things are.

You know, Tina Turner has quite a voice and yet still depended on dance rock, a smokin' body, style by Ike Turner and choreography to sell herself in the 60s and 70s.

Anyway, sex appeal isn't all bad, take a look at Adam Ant, ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z7fV-wB2z8&ob=av2e

Southpaw
09-09-2011, 01:02 AM
Oh yeah, Adam Ant used to make me all giggly.