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Scintillation
08-23-2011, 05:54 PM
Russian team announced: http://www.thecouchgymnast.com/?p=3319

I'm surprised Ksenia Semenova is not on the team.

judgejudy27
08-23-2011, 06:09 PM
I also thought with the injury to Mustafina especialy Semenova would make it for this year.

judgejudy27
08-23-2011, 06:11 PM
I don't want to say a vet won't make the team, but I do wonder about ASAC making it. Her beam is kind of shaky even if she can be for the most counted on to stay on. Her floor doesn't look ready and you have to wonder how long her body will hold up. The leadership argument well she was the Team Captain in Beijing too. That being said Marta does love her so..

Who do you think has a better shot to make the team between Sacramone and Raisman. Raisman can be easily used on 3 events and is very reliable on all 3, although she probably wont be needed on vault.

chipso1
08-23-2011, 11:46 PM
Who do you think has a better shot to make the team between Sacramone and Raisman. Raisman can be easily used on 3 events and is very reliable on all 3, although she probably wont be needed on vault.

I love Alicia, but like others have mentioned, it could be hard for her to make the team. Wieber, Maroney and Ross all have Amanars and are useful on every other event, too (Maroney less-so on bars in a TF situation).

Between Aly and Alicia, Aly may have the edge heading into London because 1) she's not needed on VT or UB, 2) her beam set is solid and reliable, 3) her FX has humongous scoring potential (more so than Alicia's), 4) she has no injuries (yet...*knock on wood*) or nagging injuries (that we know of).

I agree with the poster that said it's doubtful as to whether any of the Beijing girls will make the 2012 squad. Chellsie seems on the right track but her history of injuries is worrying. Shawn seems to be getting her difficulty back but I still don't think we want her up on UB during the team final. Sloan is an unknown entity at this point but just may find herself on the team if she continues to prove useful on bars.

IMO, a strong London team could be Wieber, Maroney, Ross, Raisman and then one of Bross/Douglas/Sloan/Memmel.

Again, I love Alicia, I just don't know if she fits on a 5-person team when she's up against three girls with bigger vaults. If she ends up making the team I think it's because Martha wants her as the experienced, level-headed leader.

FiveRinger
08-24-2011, 01:40 AM
I may be talking really stupid here, and I'm not much more than a gymno fan, but someone please tell me why it is that ASac can't learn an Amanar between now and London? It looks like she has more than enough time to complete the rotations? Is it her age and trying to preserve her body? How old was Amanar when she competed her last Olympics anyway? She wasn't a baby chick, by any stretch. Can you tell that of all the vets that she's the one that I want to go to London? SJ has had plenty of success, no tears for her. And I can't stand to watch Memmel at all.

Raisman needs a hair brush and a ballet class....STAT! The ballet class would clean up her appearance and her lines, since it demands neatness and precision in all of the ways that she needs it.

bek
08-24-2011, 03:34 AM
Who do you think has a better shot to make the team between Sacramone and Raisman. Raisman can be easily used on 3 events and is very reliable on all 3, although she probably wont be needed on vault.

I actually have a feeling if Bross gets her floor back that Alicia actually has a better shot to make the team than Raisman. Unless Raisman gets a standout vault. To be frank I think its just as likely NEITHER makes the team.

Fridge_Break
08-24-2011, 04:51 AM
I may be talking really stupid here, and I'm not much more than a gymno fan, but someone please tell me why it is that ASac can't learn an Amanar between now and London?

Alicia has been training the Amanar (and was before 2008), and also a 2/1 front handspring vault, a vault in which blows the Amanar away in terms of difficulty. Alicia apparently wanted to compete them this season, but Marta said no because they aren't consistent enough yet. If Alicia can get even just one of these two vaults down next year, there is no question in my mind that she will make it to London. That being said, I think she'll be on the team anyways regardless, as long as she stays injury free.

And also, if Shawn can carry her improvement over the 3 weeks we saw earlier into all of next year? No question in my mind she'll be on the team. I'd have her on this year's team even, even though a lot of people disagree.

reese
08-24-2011, 05:15 AM
Alicia has been training the Amanar (and was before 2008), and also a 2/1 front handspring vault, a vault in which blows the Amanar away in terms of difficulty. Alicia apparently wanted to compete them this season, but Marta said no because they aren't consistent enough yet. If Alicia can get even just one of these two vaults down next year, there is no question in my mind that she will make it to London. That being said, I think she'll be on the team anyways regardless, as long as she stays injury free.


I thought the Amanar has been/is out of the question for Sacramone because she can't really handle forward-landing vaults?

judgejudy27
08-24-2011, 05:17 AM
I actually have a feeling if Bross gets her floor back that Alicia actually has a better shot to make the team than Raisman. Unless Raisman gets a standout vault. To be frank I think its just as likely NEITHER makes the team.

I think how needed Raisman is on floor is a huge determining factor to whether she makes the team or not. Even though I dont like her gymnastics I would feel bad for her in a way if she doesnt make it since she has done pretty much everything asked and expected of her since turning senior, but the competition is cutthroat so that may not be enough.

bek
08-24-2011, 05:28 AM
#50
FiveRinger


Join Date: Mar 2005
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Rep Power: 862958 I may be talking really stupid here, and I'm not much more than a gymno fan, but someone please tell me why it is that ASac can't learn an Amanar between now and London? It looks like she has more than enough time to complete the rotations? Is it her age and trying to preserve her body? How old was Amanar when she competed her last Olympics anyway? She wasn't a baby chick, by any stretch. Can you tell that of all the vets that she's the one that I want to go to London? SJ has had plenty of success, no tears for her. And I can't stand to watch Memmel at all.



Chances are that Amanar was a a year or two (or maybe even more) younger than her official age in Sydney. And Amanar was offically 21 there. Alicia is 23. And no I don't think Amanar was the same gymnast at "21" as she was years before.

I think the reason people question whether Alicia can really grade, is part of the question if she was so capable of upgrading why didn't she upgrade years ago. Amanar and Zamo were pretty much in a "anything you can do I can do better stage" and were constantly trying to out do each other on vault, both were trying to get the 2 1/2 named for them. Amanar got the vault name. Zamo got the Olympic gold in 2000 (of course Amanar had vault gold in 96 I believe) Amanar's debut of that vault wasn't exactly a perfectly done vault.

But in Alicia's case, Alicia is a top vaulter for years and she was competiting against Cheng Fei were Cheng could literally fall and still beat Alicia. People can't help wondering if Alicia was so capable of upgrading and I"m not talking about training but also having a vault consistent, why didn't Alicia upgrade years ago. And its easier to upgrade when your young. Of course Alicia was pretty beat up but still.. Its like why with Cheng Fei gone are you so interested in upgrading now?...

Also I think that the issue with Alicia as well is the fact that many people wonder how much her body is holding up. While her vault is better than ever, her floor really insn't better than ever. And her beam while consistent, she's not really hitting her connections.

The fact is what may bring Alicia down when it comes to the Olympic selection isn't so much that she has a Rudi rather than Amanar (because Marta might trust that Rudi more than some others) but rather that others may be useful on other events too. I mean Ross right now IS better on floor and beam than Alicia (lets not get into bars). And now has the Amanar. In a five person team, would it be really smart to take Alicia instead. Especially since injuries can happen at any moment in this sport. And Ross is a gymnast you can put up anywhere. Even Raisman in some ways if she can get an Amanar is once again one of those situations.

I frankly will point out there won't be room on the US Olympic team for Raisman, Maroney and Sac. I'm not even sure there will be room for 2 of them.

Domshabfan
08-24-2011, 05:55 AM
I thought the Amanar has been/is out of the question for Sacramone because she can't really handle forward-landing vaults?

Agreed, if you look at Asac vault from Day 2 at US nationals, her DTY was slightly short of rotation... So adding an extra half twist might be difficult. Similarly, Geddert, Wieber's coach commented of Weiber getting a second vault as
"We've played with it forever. She just really does not go forward well. I mean, she has other vaults, but they're all backward. And it was getting very frustrating and time consuming we felt. Shawn Johnson went through the same kind of thing -- great vaulter, really just couldn't get that forward thing going."

Source: John Geddert: Jordyn Wieber 'sent a message' to the world - National Gymnastics (http://www.examiner.com/gymnastics-in-national/story-one#ixzz1Vv0butfC).

Its probably US system which is at fault, where importance is put at being an all-rounder rather than winning the vault event. In countries like Russia and Romania, most athletes train 2 vaults from different family were as in US, there were only 3 athletes with two vaults at the last nationals.

judgejudy27
08-24-2011, 05:56 AM
Amanar was a much better gymnast in 96 than 2000. In 95 and 96 she was a breath of fresh air on the Romanian team, even if she couldnt dance and had little artistry like most of her teammates, she was pushing the envelope on difficulty on almost every event, she had excellent form, she was extremely powerful and did things with ease, and she had a refreshing personality and air of youth. By the end of the decade she was quite boring, her form was a mess, and she was no longer doing some of the hardest routines. She had morphed into what Milosovici was at the end of her own career basically. Back in 96 her team optionals score in Atlanta actually would have won her the AA gold easily over Lilia. She didnt perform her best in the AA final and also got killed by a shockingly low floor score, so ended up tied for bronze. However she was a killer gymnast back then, with the best vaults in the World, the best tumbling, and surprisingly very good bars (she actually tied Khorkina and Podkopayeva for the bars gold at the 96 Europeans and was the anchor Romanian bars worker in all events), and decent beam. In 2000 her vaults were sloppier and she was still doing that horrible Phelps which was passe by then (although in her Olympic year she did try to up the ante with the 2.5 yurchenko/Amanar vault but didnt try it at the Games until event finals where she messed it up), her bars was absolutely dreadful, and her floor tumbling had stagnated or regressed slightly while most others had greatly improved with the times. Only her beam was arguably better by 2000. She would have been buried in the AA in Sydney if all the Russians, Karpenko, Raducan, and the top 1 or 2 Chinese AAers had hit all their routines. She was seen as a much bigger threat for the AA in Atlanta than Sydney, despite that she ended up doing better in Sydney. In Atlanta where she won gold in vault, silver in floor, and was a bars finalist, but in Sydney she did not medal on vault, and won a weak bronze in floor with an OOB in a splatfest final.

So Amanar is not at all an example of getting better with age. She is an example of hanging on reasonably well through hard work and consistency, and getting inflated marks often due to her rep under the 10 system that kept her somewhat in contention until she retired.

Domshabfan
08-24-2011, 06:51 AM
Amanar was a much better gymnast in 96 than 2000. In 95 and 96 she was a breath of fresh air on the Romanian team, even if she couldnt dance and had little artistry like most of her teammates, she was pushing the envelope on difficulty on almost every event, she had excellent form, she was extremely powerful and did things with ease, and she had a refreshing personality and air of youth. By the end of the decade she was quite boring, her form was a mess, and she was no longer doing some of the hardest routines. She had morphed into what Milosovici was at the end of her own career basically. Back in 96 her team optionals score in Atlanta actually would have won her the AA gold easily over Lilia. She didnt perform her best in the AA final and also got killed by a shockingly low floor score, so ended up tied for bronze. However she was a killer gymnast back then, with the best vaults in the World, the best tumbling, and surprisingly very good bars (she actually tied Khorkina and Podkopayeva for the bars gold at the 96 Europeans and was the anchor Romanian bars worker in all events), and decent beam. In 2000 her vaults were sloppier and she was still doing that horrible Phelps which was passe by then (although in her Olympic year she did try to up the ante with the 2.5 yurchenko/Amanar vault but didnt try it at the Games until event finals where she messed it up), her bars was absolutely dreadful, and her floor tumbling had stagnated or regressed slightly while most others had greatly improved with the times. Only her beam was arguably better by 2000. She would have been buried in the AA in Sydney if all the Russians, Karpenko, Raducan, and the top 1 or 2 Chinese AAers had hit all their routines. She was seen as a much bigger threat for the AA in Atlanta than Sydney, despite that she ended up doing better in Sydney. In Atlanta where she won gold in vault, silver in floor, and was a bars finalist, but in Sydney she did not medal on vault, and won a weak bronze in floor with an OOB in a splatfest final.

So Amanar is not at all an example of getting better with age. She is an example of hanging on reasonably well through hard work and consistency, and getting inflated marks often due to her rep under the 10 system that kept her somewhat in contention until she retired.
Raducan did do better than Amanar, it was positive drug test that cost her the gold medal and officially she is the olympic champion from Sydney AA

BigB08822
08-24-2011, 07:35 AM
You know what would probably make me shit on myself...if Alicia ever stuck a vault. Why in the World can't she stick a landing?

I think this was the deal with her not doing forward landing vaults. She can't control the easier to land backward vaults so how could she possibly have consistency with the forward landing vaults? Maybe that was the issue, even more uncontrolled landings...

It sounds like Sac wanted to do the front 2/1 handspring but Marta said no. If Sac wanted to do it then she must have been feeling good with it. I wouldn't want to be debuting it at Worlds. Maybe Marta figures she can throw it during EF if she needs it to beat Maroney (which she might) and if she kills herself it is no big deal because there isn't room for Maroney and Sac on the Olympic team. Makes Marta's job easier but don't get hurt until after team event at Worlds so we can WIN.

Loves_Shizuka
08-24-2011, 07:47 AM
^Ha, I wonder that about ASac. TBH, I kinda like her, but not her gymnastics - if anything, she's too powerful - or at least she can't harness her power - which makes her gymnastics look really sloppy to me. Not that she has bad form because actually her's seems quite good for this day and age; but everything looks so muscled and ... inelegant.

Btw, what do the record books say about the Sydney AA gold - Amanar or Raducan?