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Dragonlady
08-18-2011, 05:45 PM
Where exactly does it cross the line?

I think it crosses the line when the children are tarted up to look like Vegas showgirls. IMO, they should not be allowed to wear flippers, wigs, falls, extensions, or compete in bathing suits. The outfits should be age appropriate and not shrunken showgirl outfits.

Jenny
08-18-2011, 06:04 PM
Personally, even in a full glitz pageant, I've never seen a participant who looks like a porn star, hooker or Vegas showgirl. For that matter, I don't think women in those professions tend to wear glitzy cupcake dresses either.

I'm not defending glitz pageants, but I also don't think subjective hyperbole is helpful to the discussion. I get that a lot of people find glitz pageants, and in some cases all pageants, completely distasteful.

What I'm more interested in is what that opinion is based on, and exactly when the line is crossed from innocent play to sexualization. We all know the extremes - but what about what's in between?

Skittl1321
08-18-2011, 06:22 PM
You know, for me, it's not the cupcake dresses that are the problems. It's the outfit of choice, and the dance that goes along with it.

I don't mind little kids in bikini's if they are looking like little kids, and dancing like little kids. But once they get to the 5 or 6 year age and older, and they are made up to look like adults, dancing like adults, it isn't appropriate.

rjblue
08-18-2011, 06:45 PM
I'm of exactly the opposite point of view. My girls loved to put on tons of makeup, sparkly clothes and dance to songs like Vogue. They would have LOVED a glitz pageant- it bears no resemblance to reality. It truly is a dress up contest.

On the other hand, I HATE the all natural pageants, and beauty pageants in general. Sometimes the plump and homely little girls are also the best at glitzing and vogueing- it is a talent- albeit a really weird one, but you have to be pretty to win a natural pageant.

My 17 year old daughter is planning on saying yes, if anyone ever asks her to be in a pageant. And then showing up in full glitz. :D

Cachoo
08-18-2011, 06:59 PM
If a child wants to quit, let her. If she takes time away and wants to come back later, also let her.

Susan Akin, a former Miss America, had competed in over 100 kiddie pageants, then quit. She came back into the pageant circuit as an adult, and won it all.

My friend's grandaughter is the current Miss America and there is some serious scholarship money out there (and she needed it!) But the kiddie stuff offers very little in the way of bonds, cash, some sort of scholarship-- I do agree with the posters who say it is all about the mothers.

jenniferlyon
08-18-2011, 11:33 PM
Thanks for that! What fun. I just loved the music! Little June was cute....I didn't see her shaking her tailfeathers at all. Just being a little girl.

The film was made before Mama Rose launched June's career in vaudeville. They made the rounds of all the Hollywood studios, but this was the silent era so there wasn't much call for a kid who could dance and sing. This particular film was made at the Hal Roach Studios, which specialized in comedies. A few years later, Roach would begin the Our Gang series, where he made a point to cast children who looked and acted like normal, ordinary, slightly funny-looking kids. So even if Baby June was used to shaking her tailfeathers elsewhere, it's doubtful that Hal Roach would have asked her to do so in the Harold Lloyd film. Somewhere, I read that June appeared in another movie where they dressed her like a beat-up street kid, which did NOT please Mama Rose.

Holley Calmes
08-19-2011, 12:40 AM
Do you object to the non glitz pageants as well? The ones where there are no ridiculous outfits, no bathing suits and no makeup?

I don't like beauty pagents of any kind, but that said, Fate stepped in and handed me experiences that I didn't ask for.

I have a wonderful friend with two beautiful daughters, twins. One was a collegiate basketball player, the other wanted to do pageants. They came to me asking for help because I was in the arts and dance, and must just know about such things! WRONG!!

But I did try to help Ginger, who was a lovely, sweet girl with an outgoing but definitely refined presence. Back then, I did know a person who did serious pagent work because my daughter's ballet company had a dancer who was actually Miss Georgia. It was pretty high level and classy for pagents anyway. I put them in touch.

As a result, my little friend went on the pagent circuit in north Georgia, and I went with her Mom, shielding my eyes and ears along the way. I had never allowed my daughter to watch Miss America because I just didn't like women being judged simply for their looks. (I refuse to address the "talent" aspect of this event...) And there's no way in hell I believe all that "scholarship" junk, because now I know a ton of girls who did pagents, and the clothes alone ate up any kind of college money you got, not to mention the coaching and field of experts you would help you "win" if you were going to be competitive at all.

To make a long story short, I was appalled at most of the pagents-small, county type events but part of the Miss America franchise. These poor girls would get up and bellow a song, totally off key and awful, and the entire audience would cheer. I guess it was pretty harmless and made them feel good. But unless you had a stake in knowing one of them, it was an ordeal to watch.

My snobbery took a turn, however, when I was asked to judge the pagent for the town I live in, also a Miss America pagent. I didn't want to, but I owed someone a favor, and I went.

Here's what changed my mind. There was no way any of the girls I "judged" were ever going to make it to the Miss America pagent. I was just hoping the experience got them better prepared to interview for college and/or a good job.

What the experience did for them had nothing to do with glitzy clothing, poofy hair, or anything beyond the bare basics that a rural town girl could manage. But what they did learn was how to present themselves to strangers in a comfortable and pleasant way. They learned good posture. They learned how important it is to get an education and have a "platform" which meant doing good for other people. In all, I found this a healthy and positive thing for some very sweet and lovely, and very unglamorous girls whom I came to love. I wound up judging the pagent three times and always came away feeling like I had been blessed somehow by some very real, genuine, and aspiring young women who might never be pageant material, but who grew and became more confident during the process.

So I ate crow about SOME pageants. It's like many things-a very complex subject. I abhor any kind of pageant that encourages participants of any age under the very oldest to dress, wear hair and makeup, and present themselves as something out of a very base music video. Just nasty. But there are other types of pageants that I think can be ok.

Prancer
08-19-2011, 01:08 AM
because now I know a ton of girls who did pagents, and the clothes alone ate up any kind of college money you got, not to mention the coaching and field of experts you would help you "win" if you were going to be competitive at all.

Do pageants typically give scholarship money directly to contestants?

AndyWarhol
08-19-2011, 01:51 AM
Whilst I do live T&T as a guilty pleasure, I dont see the point of pageants. You can teach your kids to have good posture and be pleasant just by being mindful when raising them. It seems like a lot of money to outlay, when they aren't really learning any skills other than walking/smiling/posing etc.

Skittl1321
08-19-2011, 02:02 AM
Do pageants typically give scholarship money directly to contestants?

They usually get savings bonds, sometimes cash. The value of the top prize at T&T pageants almost never comes close to what parents spend to enter/prepare their child.

Holley Calmes
08-19-2011, 03:19 AM
I was refering to the Miss America "scholarship pageant" system. I really don't know enough about it to say truly whether or not a girl can successfully compete and get scholarship money and come out the other side with enough to actually use towards her education. As a marketing professional, I am sure enough have done this for the "system" to be able to say it works. I do have lots of firsthand knowledge that pageants on a higher level are VERY expensive to be in if you want to really compete-be that "polished contestant" with all the right clothes, grooming, answers, and etc. It takes a lot of money. I'm no expert. Just a brush with the whole thing in a minor market where the girls were poor but earnest.

Latte
08-19-2011, 07:37 PM
The mother's on T&T are paying a average of $5000 for their clothes. And a entry fee of about $300. Plus the cost of a hotel, meals, gas, etc. Some contests just give out crowns and certificates, Some give out about $200 or $300 to the winner.
So there is not way to come out ahead in this game.

skatesindreams
08-19-2011, 08:24 PM
These "kiddlie" pageants are for the gratification of the mothers/parents/grandparents alone.
The other beneficiaries those who receive the "entry fees".

Garden Kitty
08-19-2011, 11:10 PM
I was refering to the Miss America "scholarship pageant" system. I really don't know enough about it to say truly whether or not a girl can successfully compete and get scholarship money and come out the other side with enough to actually use towards her education.

One summer I sublet a bedroom in an apartment near UCLA. Two of the other women who lived there were active in pageants. As much as I'd like to mock both of them because they were both prettier and more popular than I'd ever be, they were both incredibly sweet, talented women who really did spend their free time doing all the various volunteer activities listed on impressive resumes such as teaching horseback riding to disabled kids and mentoring at risk kids.

One of the women had made enough money in the "talent" portion of the local and state pageants (she was a piano major) to pay for almost all of her college education. The other used pageant scholarship for a big chunk of her tuition. They were very aware of the difference between the Miss USA pageant which they looked down on because there was no "scholarship" money awarded for talent, and MIss America. (This was a number of years ago before Miss USA became big and Miss America was moved to cable).

One of the women worked part time as a major Princess character at Disneyland and had been selected as the Disneyland Ambassador.The Ambassador job involved escorting VIPs when they came to tour the park and making public appearances on behalf of Disney, and she definitely felt that her pageant experience gave her a comfort making speeches and meeting people that she wouldn't have had otherwise.

I don't think either of them had done very young kid pageants, but they had started in mid/younger teens.

Cachoo
08-19-2011, 11:23 PM
One summer I sublet a bedroom in an apartment near UCLA. Two of the other women who lived there were active in pageants. As much as I'd like to mock both of them, they were both incredibly sweet, talented women who really did spend their free time doing all the various volunteer activities listed on impressive resumes such as teaching horseback riding to disabled kids and mentoring at risk kids.

One of the women had made enough money in the "talent" portion of the local and state pageants (she was a piano major) to pay for almost all of her college education. The other used pageant scholarship for a big chunk of her tuition. They were very aware of the difference between the Miss USA pageant which they looked down on because there was no "scholarship" money awarded for talent, and MIss America. (This was a number of years ago before Miss USA became big and Miss America was moved to cable).

One of the women worked part time as a major Princess character at Disneyland and had been selected as the Disneyland Ambassador.The Ambassador job involved escorting VIPs when they came to tour the park and making public appearances on behalf of Disney, and she definitely felt that her pageant experience gave her a comfort making speeches and meeting people that she wouldn't have had otherwise.

I don't think either of them had done very young kid pageants, but they had started in mid/younger teens.

My best friend's college roommate was in both state pagaents for Miss America and Miss USA. She placed a couple of times for the state crown for Miss America and won the state title for Miss USA. The money she earned paid for her in-state college tuition. However this was a long time ago and tuition costs have skyrocketed so I don't know how much winnings help with today's colleges costs. She did have some lovely tiaras. :)