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icellist
07-12-2011, 09:08 AM
Another one of those threads XD

Just wondering about some of your thoughts about specific skaters and couples who were continuously given unjust/bad or ridiculously/unreasonably good PCS marks. I'd rather the thread not talk about specific skates in a competition but rather a certain skater, couple, or one of their programs that were not recognized by the judging panel. Also please include which part of PCS was unjust: Skating Skills, Transitions, Performance, Choreography, or Interpretation.

and Please, again, not specific skates. Just skaters or couples or their programs (if you want to talk about transitions and choreography)

Also, can someone differentiate performance and interpretation for me?

TheIronLady
07-12-2011, 09:26 AM
The judges never gave the PCS they should have to Mao's Bells of Moscow.

icellist
07-12-2011, 09:57 AM
how so? was it the program's transitions or choreography or mao's interpretation/performance?

be specific please :D

Moka-Ananas
07-12-2011, 11:57 AM
Carolina Kostner and Patrick Chan come to mind who often managed to get high PCS although they bombed their programs.

Jenna
07-12-2011, 03:04 PM
Carolina Kostner and Patrick Chan come to mind who often managed to get high PCS although they bombed their programs.

"Bombing" a program, though, doesn't always mean low PCS should be given. One can have 2-3 falls, pops, etc. and still deserve good marks for skating skills, choreography, interpretation.

People that come to mind that are undermarked in PCS: Akiko Suzuki, Yukari Nakano, Alissa Czisny (before the 10-11 season), Cynthia Phaneuf at times, Denis Ten

Gifted: Gachinski (only at Worlds, really), Bradley (at US Nats), Samuel Contesti, Miki Ando at times

Vagabond
07-12-2011, 03:21 PM
Matthew Savoie had some of the most intricate and difficult Transitions in the sport and should have been given about the same marks as Jeffrey Buttle and Stephane Lambiel. His other PCS marks were low too, but the undermarking for Transitions was particularly egregious.

A couple of years ago, Takahiko Kozuka was given "corridor marks" that resulted in Transitions marks that were lower than they should have been. The same thing happened to Jorik Hendrickx this season.

Evgeni Plushenko was given absurdly high marks for Transitions at the 2006 Winter Olympic Games. At the 2010 Olympics, his Transitions marks were: 8.75 6.00 8.00 8.75 6.00 6.50 7.25 7.25 8.50, which means that some of the judges ranked him higher on that Component than they did Lambiel, Takahashi, and/or Chan. :shuffle:

bardtoob
07-12-2011, 04:29 PM
Except for maybe execution, which is held up because the judges don't want to be out of the window, Chan deserves high PCS all the time.

Kostner always receives "Political" Component Scores in every category. She has not been as good as her scores for at least 5 years.

manleywoman
07-12-2011, 04:32 PM
Matthew Savoie had some of the most intricate and difficult Transitions in the sport and should have been given about the same marks as Jeffrey Buttle and Stephane Lambiel. His other PCS marks were low too, but the undermarking for Transitions was particularly egregious.

Yup. To me, Matt Savoie is the biggest wuzrobbed in the history of PCS.

And Plushy is the most gifted.

Marco
07-12-2011, 04:57 PM
IMO the international judges have been quite generous with Ando and Plushenko and have not been quite appreciative of Abbott, Nagasu, Czisny and Wagner IMO.

gkelly
07-12-2011, 05:05 PM
Also, can someone differentiate performance and interpretation for me?

See detailed program component explanations here (http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf).

I usually think of everything to do with how the skater relates to the music during the performance as constituting the the Interpretation.

Performance/Execution and Choreography have a lot of different criteria that don't necessarily relate directly to each other.

The overall structure of the choreography in relation to the musical phrasing or music-related theme on a macro scale would come under the Choreography component, and a couple of the Performance/Execution criteria also mention music, so I wouldn't say that every single thing related to music comes under Interpretation.

But I think that everything scored under Interpretation relates to the music.

P/E seems like kind of a catch-all category for everything about the performance that isn't covered under any of the other components.

RumbleFish
07-12-2011, 05:16 PM
My problem with current PCS marking is that some skaters' marks never go down even when they screw up badly.

PCS marks should tumble when skaters make multiple errors, but for likes of Chan, Kostner, and Takahashi, their PCS never drops. We saw this at 2010 SC for Chan, 2008 Worlds for Kostner, and 2009 GPF for Takahashi. I think highly of these skaters' skills and think they should get high PCS if they perform well, but I cannot stand them getting held up even when they mess up.

For Ando, it is a different story. She always gets absurdly high PCS despite doing nothing that deserves such marks.

Amy03
07-12-2011, 05:22 PM
The judges never gave the PCS they should have to Mao's Bells of Moscow.

i agree mao never get the pcs score that she deserved for her bells it really was a masterpiece and i really think that she interpreted the music well, I remember seeing it on the Olympics and i instantly fell in love with the program it diffidently deserved more... I know that mao isn't the best actress on the ice but her using her whole body and the transitions were enough to make this program something special well actually just skating to such dark and different kind of music was amazing in itself..

julieann
07-12-2011, 05:32 PM
In regard to PCS (and thanks gkelly for posting that) I think some people assume judge's scores should plummet from what would have been maybe an 8 or 9 to a 5 or 6 just because of a fall or stumble and that's not realistic either.

Out of a 4 1/2 minute program hitting a skater that hard for a one-two second mistake is just as harsh. If you had good Choreography and good interpretation but bad execution that particular day the PCS numbers should reflect that accordingly based on that days competiton.

julieann
07-12-2011, 05:38 PM
My problem with current PCS marking is that some skaters' marks never go down even when they screw up badly.

PCS marks should tumble when skaters make multiple errors, but for likes of Chan, Kostner, and Takahashi, their PCS never drops. We saw this at 2011 SC for Chan, 2008 Worlds for Kostner, and 2010 GPF for Takahashi. I think highly of these skaters' skills and think they should get high PCS if they perform well, but I cannot stand them getting held up even when they mess up.

For Ando, it is a different story. She always gets absurdly high PCS despite doing nothing that deserves such marks.

Do you mean 2010 SC for Chan? My biggest question about Chan in 2010 SC is do judges mark off for fall on jumps in PCS or only in GOE and if so where? Falls on jumps are not clearly defined except for the manditory deduction.

RumbleFish
07-12-2011, 05:55 PM
Do you mean 2010 SC for Chan? My biggest question about Chan in 2010 SC is do judges mark off for fall on jumps in PCS or only in GOE and if so where? Falls on jumps are not clearly defined except for the manditory deduction.

Thanks for the heads up. I meant 2010 SC for Chan and 2009 GPF for Takahashi.

IMO, errors like falls, step-outs, two-footing, and cheated jumps should have negative impact on PCS marks. Afterall, how can skaters peform choreography or display skating skills when they are cleaning off the ice with their butts? Likewise, noticeable mistakes takes the air out of programs and enthusiasm among the crowd.