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gkelly
07-12-2011, 05:57 PM
do judges mark off for fall on jumps in PCS or only in GOE and if so where? Falls on jumps are not clearly defined except for the manditory deduction.

Falls on elements absolutely get reflected in the GOEs. The required reduction is -3, so that will almost always be the final GOE except in rare cases if there was enough of the element before the fall that would have had the element on the plus side (e.g., fall on last jump of a combination, end of otherwise good spin or step sequence).

There's no requirement for falls to be reflected in the PCS. My impression is that many judges will not penalize one fall that doesn't disrupt the program for more than two or three seconds, but if there are multiple errors resulting in the overall impression of a sloppy performance, that will be reflected under Performance/Execution. After all, visible errors such as falls and stumbles are not compatible with the "Clarity of movement" criterion for that component.

Still, a skater who is generally very refined but spends 10 seconds out of 4+ minutes making or recovering from errors might deserve higher marks for that criterion vs. another skater who makes no visible mistakes but is generally lax on posture, body line, blade placement, etc., for the whole 4+ minutes.

julieann
07-12-2011, 06:17 PM
Falls on elements absolutely get reflected in the GOEs. The required reduction is -3, so that will almost always be the final GOE except in rare cases if there was enough of the element before the fall that would have had the element on the plus side (e.g., fall on last jump of a combination, end of otherwise good spin or step sequence).

There's no requirement for falls to be reflected in the PCS. My impression is that many judges will not penalize one fall that doesn't disrupt the program for more than two or three seconds, but if there are multiple errors resulting in the overall impression of a sloppy performance, that will be reflected under Performance/Execution. After all, visible errors such as falls and stumbles are not compatible with the "Clarity of movement" criterion for that component.

Still, a skater who is generally very refined but spends 10 seconds out of 4+ minutes making or recovering from errors might deserve higher marks for that criterion vs. another skater who makes no visible mistakes but is generally lax on posture, body line, blade placement, etc., for the whole 4+ minutes.

Thanks, that make sense. I have seen some skaters take a few moments after a fall to compose themselves and some never get back into the program and others (like Chan) who act like nothing happened and if you missed the fall wouldn't have known anything happened. I can see how some judges wouldn't deduct as sever as others.

briancoogaert
07-12-2011, 07:28 PM
Carolina Kostner and Patrick Chan come to mind who often managed to get high PCS although they bombed their programs.
Well, Patrick Chan and Carolina Kostner have amazing skating skills, so, even if they don't land every jump, it's beautiful to watch them. IMO.

Erin
07-12-2011, 07:42 PM
Matthew Savoie had some of the most intricate and difficult Transitions in the sport and should have been given about the same marks as Jeffrey Buttle and Stephane Lambiel. His other PCS marks were low too, but the undermarking for Transitions was particularly egregious.

I would definitely agree that Savoie's Transition marks were too low, but I never thought he was that undermarked in all of the other components. I thought Matt had interesting programs and wonderful detail to them, but found the use of his arms and lack of line somewhat detracted from the program. His rather introspective performance also hurt a bit. Given that, at a bare minimum I can understand why he didn't get really high marks in Performance/Execution (due to carriage, clarity of movement, precision in delivery and projection) and Skating Skills (some of the areas around sureness of edges, balance, rhythmic knee action). I could agree with his Choreography and Interpretation marks being higher, though.



There's no requirement for falls to be reflected in the PCS.

I believe there was guidance in the initial draft of COP that judges should deduct 0.5 for each fall from the PE mark. In actual experience, judges either didn't do so or may have done so, but it was difficult to see. As a result, the mandatory -1 per fall rule came into effect. I tend to think of that deduction as at least partially reflecting that a fall impacts a program's flow more than some other errors and should have an additional penalty over and above the lost GOE. I would almost think of the -1 deduction as the cost of a "regular" fall on the program. At the same time, sometimes skaters have falls that are significantly more disruptive than the average, multiple falls in the program (which tend to exponentially impact the program's performance), messy mistakes that do not qualify as falls, or simply lose the performance value after making a mistake. In these cases, the impact on the program was more than the required deduction and it makes sense for the PCS to reflect that additional impact. Now as to whether a judge sees it that way or whether that is the way the ISU even wants them to see it, that's a different story.

nikjil
07-12-2011, 08:20 PM
It always seemed to me that there are differences between falls that should be relfected in the PC marks. There's what I tended to think of the Kwan fall, a bounce on the butt them up that was never particularly disruptive as opposed to the Butryskaya/Kostner sprawl or face plants that really disrupts the flow of the program. The problem for me with Kostner's marks is that generally her multi-fall programs tend to be accompanied with a complete "deer in headlights" performance quality that never seems to be reflected in her PC marks.

npavel
07-12-2011, 08:39 PM
Plushenko's transitions marks are always to high as he had often said you don't need them, just jump.
Kostner's skating skills are about the best in women's field, so she should always get these marks quite high. This year she has grown in presentation really much.
PCS are not jumps and it's why they get are to mark independently. I always think skaters who are god jumpers get high PCS, but it shouldn't be so. Jumps get a lot of credit in the technical marks; the skating skills, presentation, execution, transitions, choreography, the artistry ... should reflected much more independently in PCS.

sk9tingfan
07-12-2011, 10:34 PM
Carolina Kostner and Patrick Chan come to mind who often managed to get high PCS although they bombed their programs.

PC:2010 SC

museksk8r
07-13-2011, 12:13 AM
Carolina Kostner's amazing footwork usually deserves high scores. Girl has MAD speed and skating skills! Her choreography and musical interpretation usually merit her high scores as well I think.

Fozzie Bear
07-13-2011, 12:18 AM
I felt DelSchoes often deserved higher PCS than they were given.

Proustable
07-13-2011, 02:38 AM
My problem with current PCS marking is that some skaters' marks never go down even when they screw up badly.

PCS marks should tumble when skaters make multiple errors, but for likes of Chan, Kostner, and Takahashi, their PCS never drops. We saw this at 2010 SC for Chan, 2008 Worlds for Kostner, and 2009 GPF for Takahashi. I think highly of these skaters' skills and think they should get high PCS if they perform well, but I cannot stand them getting held up even when they mess up.

For Ando, it is a different story. She always gets absurdly high PCS despite doing nothing that deserves such marks.

I've heard that stated several times, but what about someone like Denis Ten? He got higher PCS for an LP with five falls than he did for an LP with three falls (Skate America 2010 vs NHK 2010). I think if you examine the scores, you'll see that mistakes on elements tend not to be reflected in the actual PCS (S/S at Euros 2011 is another example)

julieann
07-13-2011, 05:31 AM
"Bombing" a program, though, doesn't always mean low PCS should be given. One can have 2-3 falls, pops, etc. and still deserve good marks for skating skills, choreography, interpretation.

I agree, Chan fell on a quad and got the deduction, he got right back up. Fell on a triple and got the deduction, got right back up. Neither one I would consider egregious. The fall on the footwork was at the last 10 seconds of the program, it was weird but he did again get the deduction. The rest was good and hardly a bomb. He got the deductions where he should have got them. But he didn't he didn't get deducted where he clearly earned the score.

This is a bomb (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpBDUNe3Ez0) yet their PCS scores were on par with the second place team even though they were in 4th and much higher than the third place team.

misskarne
07-13-2011, 06:15 AM
"Bombing" a program, though, doesn't always mean low PCS should be given. One can have 2-3 falls, pops, etc. and still deserve good marks for skating skills, choreography, interpretation.


Not really. One fall you can maybe get away with it - by two or three falls or pops you've really taken away from the feel of the program.

I honestly don't understand the Gachinsky Worlds 2011 hate. He actually skated really well and I like the style he's developing. It's kind of a YagudinPlushenkoKulikWeir mishmash. It's fun.


My problem with current PCS marking is that some skaters' marks never go down even when they screw up badly.

PCS marks should tumble when skaters make multiple errors, but for likes of Chan, Kostner, and Takahashi, their PCS never drops. We saw this at 2010 SC for Chan, 2008 Worlds for Kostner, and 2009 GPF for Takahashi. I think highly of these skaters' skills and think they should get high PCS if they perform well, but I cannot stand them getting held up even when they mess up.

THIS this this.


IMO, errors like falls, step-outs, two-footing, and cheated jumps should have negative impact on PCS marks. Afterall, how can skaters peform choreography or display skating skills when they are cleaning off the ice with their butts? Likewise, noticeable mistakes takes the air out of programs and enthusiasm among the crowd.

This is pretty much my thoughts exactly.

IMO I don't think falls are penalised harshly enough. I've heard enough people criticise and say "it's figure SKATING, not figure JUMPING" well let me reply with, "it's figure SKATING, not figure FALLING!"

If you fall, it should be a whopping deduction, not the little ones it is now. (I don't think -3 GOE and a -1 deduction is enough, really.) You should not be able to win with a fall. You shouldn't be able to top five with two, and you should be lucky to top 10 with three or more. (For the record, this isn't a Chan hate issue - I also think Plushenko was extremely lucky to be 4th after the SLC SP.)

Or, to put it another way - in motor racing, you could have smooth cornering, excellent braking skills, great acceleration technique. But if you crash, you're penalised - either by the stewards for being a moron, or by the simple fact that you can't continue. Either way it's virtually impossible to win the race - as it should be.

julieann
07-13-2011, 06:50 AM
If you fall, it should be a whopping deduction, not the little ones it is now. (I don't think -3 GOE and a -1 deduction is enough, really.) You should not be able to win with a fall. You shouldn't be able to top five with two, and you should be lucky to top 10 with three or more. (For the record, this isn't a Chan hate issue - I also think Plushenko was extremely lucky to be 4th after the SLC SP.)

Saying a skater can't win with a fall is not taking into consideration everything else they are being judged on.

If a skater has a base value of 80 and improves that by 10 but has one fall and another skater has a base value of of 60 and improves that by 5 with no falls, with both PCS' being equal the skater with no falls wins even though that skate wasn't as good points wise? Why don't we just turn the music off when a skater falls and ask them to leave the ice?

Does a team who throws and interception never come back to win the Superbowl? Does a batter who strikesout never comes back to win a World Series? The list goes on and on.....

walei
07-13-2011, 07:05 AM
Or, to put it another way - in motor racing, you could have smooth cornering, excellent braking skills, great acceleration technique. But if you crash, you're penalised - either by the stewards for being a moron, or by the simple fact that you can't continue. Either way it's virtually impossible to win the race - as it should be.

I do not agree with this analogy. In a racing sport all competitors are basically doing the same thing, complete the same course.

In figure skating is different. Unless all skaters do the exact same steps and exact same elements, those who fall should not win. However that's not the case as we all know.

moebius
07-14-2011, 03:55 AM
Never thought Alissa Czsiny was gifted with PCS. She skates slow and tentatively. People think she should get higher PCS because of her artistry.

Evan Lysacek was always gifted with PCS. Those frenetic moves look very awkard on ice.