PDA

View Full Version : "Wuzrobbed" vs. "Different Opinions"



Pages : [1] 2 3 4

attyfan
07-11-2011, 07:20 PM
Inspired by another thread:

Do you distinguish between the two? If so, what factors do you consider before thinking that "Skater X wuzrobbed" as opposed to "reasonable minds can have different opinions"

purple skates
07-11-2011, 07:31 PM
If we are talking about my favorite skater, than it's wuzrobbed. If it's yours, then we can have different opinions. :D

That was said jokingly, but I think there's a lot of truth in that statement. If you don't have an emotional attachment to the skater (or baseball team or gymnast or whatever) in question, it is easier to be open minded.

aliceanne
07-11-2011, 08:01 PM
[QUOTE=sk8er1964;3232750]If we are talking about my favorite skater, than it's wuzrobbed. If it's yours, then we can have different opinions. :D

I agree. If you are judging a performance for overall impression, or judging it by the sum of individual components, it can make a difference also. Patrick Chan's infamous Skate Canada win is an example. The component scores may have added up, but the overall impression that falling 3x made was not a winning performance.

I think the reason that the gold medal in the pairs competition at the Salt Lake Olympics was such a big deal was that the French judge publicized the fact that she was told to manipulate the scoring.

However, skating is such a small world I imagine how you interact with the judges and officials can't help but have an impact on your score.

Triple Butz
07-11-2011, 08:42 PM
Different opinions: Chen/Kwan in 96 or Kwan/Lipinski in 98.

Wuzrobbed: Kerrigan (who I can't stand) over Baiul in 94.

gkelly
07-11-2011, 09:22 PM
Different opinions: Chen/Kwan in 96 or Kwan/Lipinski in 98.

Wuzrobbed: Kerrigan (who I can't stand) over Baiul in 94.

Yes, I agree with those examples.

I understand why Baiul won and I don't think there was necessarily any funny business going on. I just think that the nature of the ordinal system, the lack of instant replay or other mechanism for verifying the more verifiable objective facts about the skating, and the emotional preferences of the judges allowed for a result that's hard to justify in sporting terms.

Instant replay and technical panels and clearer guidelines for how much each skill is worth under IJS make an inherently subjective process a little more objective. But there are still going to be situations where I disagree with the majority of judges or with several decisions by the tech panels.

Or more often I'll disagree with the way the Scale of Values and the factoring for the various PCS are structured in general, or how they happen to work out for a particular skater in relation to others in that event. I.e., weightings structurally built into each year's version of the IJS.

Even if I agree with the judges' marks and the tech panels calls, if a beautifully skated program lost because of downgrades on a few not-very-cheated jumps that looked clean to the naked eye in real time, for example, I may disagree with the result because I disagree with how severely the system punished that particular error. At least the new 70% base value for those jumps mitigates that problem.

ChelleC
07-12-2011, 01:44 AM
If we are talking about my favorite skater, than it's wuzrobbed. If it's yours, then we can have different opinions. :D



I think that's it, in a nutshell. :D

bek
07-12-2011, 01:48 AM
I agree. If you are judging a performance for overall impression, or judging it by the sum of individual components, it can make a difference also. Patrick Chan's infamous Skate Canada win is an example. The component scores may have added up, but the overall impression that falling 3x made was not a winning performance.



All I feel is that i don't want a system where someone can win with four falls total, over others who are good skaters but were much cleaner.

Execution needs to matter somewhat in this system. And falling 3 times in one program is not a grand example of good execution.

IJS does do some good things but overal impression of a program should matter.

IceAlisa
07-12-2011, 02:22 AM
Or more recently, Nagasu/Flatt. ;)

gkelly
07-12-2011, 02:46 AM
Or more recently, Nagasu/Flatt. ;)

2010 Nationals? That's exactly an example of my last paragraph above, where the officials on both the tech panel and judging panel were just doing their jobs and the downgrade rules made the difference.

Unless we want the judges to try to second guess Scale of Values and inflate the marks for the skater they enjoy more or think the public would probably rather see win.

IceAlisa
07-12-2011, 03:39 AM
I was thinking about PCS marks, mainly.

blue_idealist
07-12-2011, 04:26 AM
Yes, I agree with those examples.

I understand why Baiul won and I don't think there was necessarily any funny business going on. I just think that the nature of the ordinal system, the lack of instant replay or other mechanism for verifying the more verifiable objective facts about the skating, and the emotional preferences of the judges allowed for a result that's hard to justify in sporting terms.



I've heard numourous times that Oksana won because most of the judges didn't notice she two-footed one of her jumps (I can't remember exactly, but I think it was the flip).

bardtoob
07-12-2011, 04:46 AM
^ The one of the judges said he didn't notice Nancy's 3/3.

shady82
07-12-2011, 04:53 AM
If those are reasons for the 1994 Ladies' results, then the judges clearly shouldn't be judging the competition. If they were competent, it certainly didn't show.

VIETgrlTerifa
07-12-2011, 05:45 AM
^ The one of the judges said he didn't notice Nancy's 3/3.

Are you for real?

olifaunt
07-12-2011, 06:01 AM
All I feel is that i don't want a system where someone can win with four falls total, over others who are good skaters but were much cleaner.

Execution needs to matter somewhat in this system. And falling 3 times in one program is not a grand example of good execution.

IJS does do some good things but overal impression of a program should matter.

ITA, and it looks like in theory COP agrees too, what with the performance/execution mark...however Patrick received 7.61 for his P/E mark in the SP. Second highest of the night, only .07 points behind Oda's score - and Oda won the SP! And again at Cup of Russia, his freeskate P/E score was the second highest of the night, barely .2 points behind Verner, even though he had three falls and Verner skated clean.

I'm not going to deny that Patrick is an amazing skater (his freeskate at Canadian nationals this year was jaw-dropping), but some of the PCS scores he got this season are, to speak frankly, insane and unfair.