PDA

View Full Version : Most poorly judged competitions



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18

Jenna
07-11-2011, 01:59 AM
And that's fair? This thread is about bad judging, and my entire point is that certain skaters got ">" marks and "e" marks when others got overlooked. Add this to the PCS scores and it was a poorly judged competition.

I don't think it's "fair" or "unfair." Like I said, the call could have gone either way, and this time it went in favor of E.L. That doesn't mean it's the "right" or "wrong" call, just the call that the technical panel thought was fair at the time..

I'd be interested to know which competitions within the last 3-4 years were judged completely fairly.

Triple Butz
07-11-2011, 02:22 AM
If you get into the PCS scores, then just about every competition is going to be considered a "poorly judged competition." Because people will always piss and moan if some skater they don't like got higher PCS scores than their favorites.

Thats a generalization. PCS is actually not supposed to be as subjective is as people think...it's actually mapped out fairly clearly. Not everyone thinks their favorite should win all the time no matter what. In this instance, my favorites in the competition were Lambiel and Abbott, neither of whom deserved to be on the podium as I see it, and Abbott should not have been close. I base my opinions on the performances that were actually given and apply them to the competition rules and guidelines.

Triple Butz
07-11-2011, 02:27 AM
I don't think it's "fair" or "unfair." Like I said, the call could have gone either way, and this time it went in favor of E.L. That doesn't mean it's the "right" or "wrong" call, just the call that the technical panel thought was fair at the time..

I'd be interested to know which competitions within the last 3-4 years were judged completely fairly.
"Completely fairly" is not possible in any judged event. I will say that most competitions are judged well. For example, this year's worlds. While there may have been a few things I disagreed with, the event as a whole was judged pretty well.

falling_dance
07-11-2011, 02:44 AM
As many have said before in other threads: the men's short program at 2005 US Nats. Matt Savoie's was the fourth-place program (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFAsNpBJbk0). Argh.

attyfan
07-11-2011, 02:52 AM
I'm more curious - would anyone argue that there is a well judged competition in which you disagreed with the major results?

Yes. 1998 Olys Ladies, IMO. While I agree with the results of the '96 Worlds ladies, I think that it would also be equally well judged if Chen Lu had been declared the winner.

Triple Butz
07-11-2011, 03:19 AM
Yes. 1998 Olys Ladies, IMO. While I agree with the results of the '96 Worlds ladies, I think that it would also be equally well judged if Chen Lu had been declared the winner.

ITA. I would add to that the 97 ladies worlds competition. While I may have personally judged certain aspects of the competition differently, think the outcome was fair and the judging was fair, with ordinals all over the place.

Cheylana
07-11-2011, 03:22 AM
Not everyone thinks their favorite should win all the time no matter what. In this instance, my favorites in the competition were Lambiel and Abbott, neither of whom deserved to be on the podium as I see it, and Abbott should not have been close.
That's not a good example. It didn't take a genius to figure out that Lambiel and Abbott didn't deserve to be on the podium, no matter how wonderful they are as skaters generally, their programs were tentative and riddled with errors. Plus my comment was about PCS, not overall placement.

RumbleFish
07-11-2011, 04:12 AM
For example, this year's worlds. While there may have been a few things I disagreed with, the event as a whole was judged pretty well.

I completely disagree. IMO, this year's worlds was one of the most poorly judged event ever. Aside from pairs, which was well judged, rest of 3 disciplines were judged terribly.

It all started with Chan getting astronomical scores in SP. Sure, he did well enough to be placed comfortably in 1st, but the margin should have been a lot less. My impression was that the ISU was trying to ensure that Chan gets a world title no matter what he did in the FS.

Ladies result was a joke. Ando has to be the most over-marked skater in the history of figure skating and her marks were inflated unprecedentedly in Moscow. She and Kim both did 5 triples with 2 Lutzes but Kim did a triple-triple and performed better spins, spiral, and footwork. No way Ando's TES should be higher than that of Kim. I don't even want to bother with PCS when Ando's coach has openly admitted that Ando does nothing except jumps in her programs. This is so obvious to everyone except ISU judges. Go figure.

Ice Dance was also poorly judged. V/M should have won the gold easily. D/W did tons of difficult stuff, but that was just about all they did. They were missing the basic point of ice dancing IMO, which is a man and a women dancing to music. I felt no chemistry between themselves, nor with the music, not to mention the audience. D/W were rewarded for quantity rather than quality, which is the exact thing that is killing ice dance.

Lastly, Weaver and Poje should have won the bronze instead of Shibutanis. Although I liked Shibutanis' programs this year, their performances in Moscow were lack luster and they should have never been placed ahead of Weaver and Poje who skated an excellent SD and a decent FD.

To summarize, I question the integrity of outcomes in ladies and ice dance results and wonder whether Chan's astronomical SP marks had anything to do with them. It is also interesting to note that had Chan been marked reasonably in the SP, Canada might have ended up winning 2 gold medals in Moscow.

Coco
07-11-2011, 04:15 AM
1994 US Nationals, Pairs. This one seriously has to take the cake.

Triple Butz
07-11-2011, 04:16 AM
That's not a good example. It didn't take a genius to figure out that Lambiel and Abbott didn't deserve to be on the podium, no matter how wonderful they are as skaters generally, their programs were tentative and riddled with errors. Plus my comment was about PCS, not overall placement.
You're missing the point entirely, which is that none of the medalists were my "favorites" so my criticisms in regards to the way the were judged in terms of PCS has nothing to do with favoritism towards them. It has to do with the performances they gave and the skills they displayed in relation to the PCS guidelines. I addressed this in the first part of my post, which you didn't quote. It's in fact an excellent example, because the skaters whose placements I questioned are not favorites of mine.

Jenna
07-11-2011, 04:21 AM
I completely disagree. IMO, this year's worlds was one of the most poorly judged event ever. Aside from pairs, which was well judged, rest of 3 disciplines were judged terribly.

It all started with Chan getting astronomical scores in SP. Sure, he did well enough to be placed comfortably in 1st, but the margin should have been a lot less. My impression was that the ISU was trying to ensure that Chan gets a world title no matter what he does in the FS.

Ladies result was a joke. Ando has to be the most over-marked skater in the history of figure skating and her marks were inflated unprecedentedly in Moscow. She and Kim both did 5 triples with 2 Lutzes but Kim did a triple-triple and performed better spins, spiral, and footwork. No way Ando's TES should be higher than that of Kim. I don't even want to bother with PCS when Ando's coach has openly admitted that Ando does nothing except jumps in her programs. This is so obvious to everyone except ISU judges. Go figure.

Ice Dance was also poorly judged. V/M should have won the gold easily. D/W did tons of difficult stuff, but that was all they did. They were missing the basic point of ice dancing IMO, which is a man and a women dancing to music. I felt no chemistry between themselves, nor with the music, not to mention the audience. D/W were rewarded for quantity rather than quality, which is the exact thing that is killing ice dance.

Lastly, Weaver and Poje should have won the bronze instead of Shibutanis. Although I liked Shibutanis' programs this year, their performances in Moscow were lack luster and they should have never been placed ahead of Weaver and Poje who skated an excellent SD and a decent FD.

To summarize, I question the integrity of outcomes in ladies and ice dance results and wonder whether Chan's astronomical SP marks had anything to do with them. It is also interesting to note that had Chan been marked reasonably in the SP, Canada might have ended up winning 2 gold medals in Moscow.

How quickly you've forgotten Kim's jump error in the short program, while Ando was completely clean. How quickly you've forgotten about Kim's single flip in the free skate. Plus Kim did score higher on the PCS by two points. Seriously, with your history of posts on FSU, do you expect anyone to believe you're objective with Kim vs. Ando (or any Japanese skater, for that matter). :rolleyes:

You say that the judges tried to ensure that Chan would win no matter what he did in the FS, but you fail to include that his FS was near perfect with two quads. Inflated scores isn't a good example of poor judging.

RumbleFish
07-11-2011, 04:35 AM
How quickly you've forgotten Kim's jump error in the short program, while Ando was completely clean. How quickly you've forgotten about Kim's single flip in the free skate. Plus Kim did score higher on the PCS by two points. Seriously, with your history of posts on FSU, do you expect anyone to believe you're objective with Kim vs. Ando (or any Japanese skater, for that matter). :rolleyes:

Pleading to Nationalism does not make Ando a legitimate winner. There are plenty of novice skaters who perform better than her, and her PCS marks should be in high 40s or low 50s. Also, go and read the rule books again. IJS is designed to rewards skaters for what they do on the ice and not to deduct what they don't do.


You say that the judges tried to ensure that Chan would win no matter what he did in the FS, but you fail to include that his FS was near perfect with two quads. Inflated scores isn't a good example of poor judging.

If you had any ability read other people's posts and engage in a debate, you should notice that I didn't question Chan's win but him being quaranteed of a win after SP.

Triple Butz
07-11-2011, 04:39 AM
...To summarize, I question the integrity of outcomes in ladies and ice dance results and wonder whether Chan's astronomical SP marks had anything to do with them. It is also interesting to note that had Chan been marked reasonably in the SP, Canada might have ended up winning 2 gold medals in Moscow.
There's a difference between questioning the judging and questioning the judging system and the general direction of the sport. While I agree with many of your opinions, unfortunately, the judges did what they were supposed to do for the most part, according to the rules as they are now. I found both Yuna an Miki's skates seriously underwhelming, but I think they were more or less judged accurately for what they did. I personally would have had Yuna ahead, but on paper I can see how Miki edged her. Regarding D/W it was extremely close and it's simply a matter of opinion that you think they didn't have a connection. I normally prefer V/M but their FD simply was not as polished and seamless as D/W's which is reflected in the protocol. I can't stand Chan's skating or personality but he deserved every mark he got in that short program, it was one of the best I've ever seen and his scores are clearly justifiable if you watch the program and look at the score card.

To summarize, I think Miki's win was lame and set back skating 15 years, but rules are rules. I sincerely hope for big changes that reward creativity and risk taking in the LP but as the rules are now, the judges pretty much did their jobs.

Jenna
07-11-2011, 04:53 AM
If you had any ability read other people's posts and engage in a debate, you should notice that I didn't question Chan's win but him being quaranteed of a win after SP.

If you had any ability to do any of the above things you mentioned, you wouldn't have written this idiotic statement.

RumbleFish
07-11-2011, 04:58 AM
To summarize, I think Miki's win was lame and set back skating 15 years, but rules are rules. I sincerely hope for big changes that reward creativity and risk taking in the LP but as the rules are now, the judges pretty much did their jobs.

I agree with you that current judging system doesn't reward creativity and risk taking.

But I beg to differ that even under the current IJS, judging in Moscow was plagued by misuses of GOE and PCS marks. Looking at judging sheets might mislead people to think that the judging was good, but if one tries to identify discrepancies between the sheet and actual performances, there will be plenty.