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berthesghost
07-21-2011, 02:14 PM
It's interesting how people perceive things differently depending on where you are and who you listen to.

I always thought that Canadians were the ones who waged a political battle against B/S starting from 2000/2001 season.

NBC and rest of the American media seemed to go with Canadians due in part to help Americans secure a gold in ladies discipline. After all the wuz robbing in pairs and how they were vilifying the French during the ice dance event, it became extremely politically unpopular to give gold to Slutskaya and not an American lady.

It was hilarious how Tom Hammons kept on raising conspiracies involving the French ice dance couple of A/P and their winning results, when it was pretty clear that they were class of the field in ice dance.Um... This sounds a little flipped backwards. The connection between the pairs event and A/P is actually something law enforcement was actively investigation with regard to sports fixing. How you can dismiss that entire international case as merely something to Hammond made up in his head is perplexing. Otoh, I'd love to hear your theory on how an s/p win would secure the gold for a us lady as that does indeed seem to be a theory you invented. I'm curious, especially since I often feel that the pairs debacle is a big reason why Kwan didn't win.

sunnydays
07-21-2011, 04:03 PM
SLC. Crap Games. :scream:

Macassar88
07-21-2011, 04:21 PM
Didn't the French judge do a good job of vilifying herself?

And do you honestly think Slutskaya should have won?

I am/was a huge Slutskaka fan and was rooting for her all the way. But, Hughes won fair and square.

I think that Slutskaya should have won overall since she should have won the short program. She had a better skate than Kwan that day. I agree with her second place finish in the free though.
(.5+2=2.5 and 2+1=3)

attyfan
07-21-2011, 04:47 PM
I think that Slutskaya should have won overall since she should have won the short program. She had a better skate than Kwan that day. I agree with her second place finish in the free though.
(.5+2=2.5 and 2+1=3)

You are presupposing, though, that the free skates would have been the same, even if the SP had been different. Both before and after SLC, Kwan would give some of her greatest performances when she had to come from behind whereas Irina gave some of her best when she was ahead after the SP. If Irina had been first after the SP, then I don't know who would have won the FS... but I doubt that it would have been Hughes.

leafygreens
07-21-2011, 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
I think one of the poorest judging decisions was the lack of an edge call on Sasha Cohen's "lutz" at the 2010 US Nationals SP. Watching the caller's video and hearing the team's audio feedback was quite disturbing.

I actually don't think that edge was that egregious. Flatt has even worse ones than that.

Triple Butz
07-21-2011, 06:10 PM
I actually don't think that edge was that egregious. Flatt has even worse ones than that.

I can't think of a more obvious flutz since Sarah Hughes retired.

Flatt has been doing a true lutz for years now, so clearly you need to check your vision :)

Yazmeen
07-21-2011, 07:26 PM
Worst flutz of all time, though, hands down, was Tara Lipinski. I used to cringe every time I saw her skate backwards on an outside edge and then roll over to an inside edge so deep that her ankle was parallel to the ice. I was always amazed that she never ended up with some sort of ankle injury just from that hideous position. Girl never did a true triple lutz which was always ticked me off on her winning Worlds/Olympics, those jumps never should have been counted as a lutz. But that was judging then, and it was what it was.

julieann
07-21-2011, 07:39 PM
Worst flutz of all time, though, hands down, was Tara Lipinski. I used to cringe every time I saw her skate backwards on an outside edge and then roll over to an inside edge so deep that her ankle was parallel to the ice. I was always amazed that she never ended up with some sort of ankle injury just from that hideous position. Girl never did a true triple lutz which was always ticked me off on her winning Worlds/Olympics, those jumps never should have been counted as a lutz. But that was judging then, and it was what it was.

She didn't compete long enough for it to develop into a nagging injury.

shady82
07-21-2011, 08:54 PM
RumbleFish said:

"It was hilarious how Tom Hammons kept on raising conspiracies involving the French ice dance couple of A/P and their winning results, when it was pretty clear that they were class of the field in ice dance."

So if A/P were the class of the field like you suggest then how come they only won the LP and the gold medal by a 5-4 split over Lobacheva/Averbuch? <G>

I agree with you that the right (and best) team won that night but it never should have been that close. Just another example of the Russians trying to fix all the skating events in SLC.

Remember L/A were only 3rd at Europeans yet at Olympics they missed a gold medal by only 1 judge.

I think it helped that L/A were Russian, which helped boost their marks. The Russians skated well, but there was absolutely nothing wrong from a judging point-of-view to give the French the gold.

Triple Butz
07-21-2011, 10:41 PM
Worst flutz of all time, though, hands down, was Tara Lipinski. I used to cringe every time I saw her skate backwards on an outside edge and then roll over to an inside edge so deep that her ankle was parallel to the ice. I was always amazed that she never ended up with some sort of ankle injury just from that hideous position. Girl never did a true triple lutz which was always ticked me off on her winning Worlds/Olympics, those jumps never should have been counted as a lutz. But that was judging then, and it was what it was.

Well, thank goodness the judges know that there is more to skating than just one flawed jump entry. I don't know how anyone could watch a good Lipinski program and not feel some amount of joy and excitement, and that's coming from a Kwaniac.

There are a lot of skaters (male and female) who have had edge problems on the flip or the lutz...should we strip them of their World and Olympic medals? What about that monstrosity Evan Lysacek calls a triple axel? That's more of an eyesore than just about any flutz I've ever seen.

julieann
07-21-2011, 11:51 PM
Well, thank goodness the judges know that there is more to skating than just one flawed jump entry. I don't know how anyone could watch a good Lipinski program and not feel some amount of joy and excitement, and that's coming from a Kwaniac.

There are a lot of skaters (male and female) who have had edge problems on the flip or the lutz...should we strip them of their World and Olympic medals? What about that monstrosity Evan Lysacek calls a triple axel? That's more of an eyesore than just about any flutz I've ever seen.

It has nothing to do with not being able to enjoy her skating when it's done correctly but when you are supposed to do a 3 lutz and you cheat the take-off, did you really do a true lutz? No, you did something else. Just like if the skater does two rotations instead of three they don't give them credit for three just because they tried.

No one is suggesting anyone get stripped of a medal obviously they are judged other things; but penalties should be used where appropriate and not ignored just because the rest of a skater's program is exciting.

Triple Butz
07-22-2011, 01:05 AM
It has nothing to do with not being able to enjoy her skating when it's done correctly but when you are supposed to do a 3 lutz and you cheat the take-off, did you really do a true lutz? No, you did something else. Just like if the skater does two rotations instead of three they don't give them credit for three just because they tried.

No one is suggesting anyone get stripped of a medal obviously they are judged other things; but penalties should be used where appropriate and not ignored just because the rest of a skater's program is exciting.

Actually, the poster I quoted did say it bothered her that Lipinski won world and olympic titles with a flutz and suggested that that was not right.

Secondly, how do you know whether or not the judges deducted for Lipinski's flutz? Just because it wasn't clearly mapped out, like with CoP, doesn't mean that it was ignored. Christine Brennan and friends made sure that everyone in the skating world knew about Tara's flutz and I'm sure the judges weren't blind to it. They simply thought, as I did, that she had enough technical merit in other places to justify high technical scores, particularly in the long program.

shady82
07-22-2011, 01:55 AM
And the poor judging from 2002 was not just about B&S vs S&P either. The generous judging towards T&M and the under-appreciation of I&Z (whom I probably would have had in 3rd place)...

And then the travesty that was the judging of the ladies competition. Suguri, not Hughes, should have been in the final group of ladies. Kwan, Suguri and Cohen should all have been ahead of Slutskaya in the free.

And then the men. Plushenko should have been behind Abt, Li and Weiss after the short, and I really would have Honda ahead of Goebel in the free.

I guess I understand the judging, but just don't accept that certain rival skaters are deemed to be equal and only cleanliness should determine who is ahead (B&S vs S&P, Honda vs Goebel, Kwan vs Slutskaya, Hughes ahead of Butyrskaya and Suguri, etc). On the same vein, I am glad Plushenko was taken out of contention after the short, because Yagudin's free was clearly superior to anything that Plushenko was capable of doing, ever but the judges often saw them as equal.

I love talking about the 2002 Olympics - there are so many different views, largely because we weren't using CoP yet. I thought dance was the most poorly judged - D/V in 5th place was a blatantly obvious scandal. And don't get me started about N/K getting promoted two places (and three for two parts of the competition).

It's interesting to see some new opinions, including many people who now say they prefer P/T to B/S. The Petrova/Tikhonov of 2004-2006 was terrific and medal material - their short programs, in particular, were outstanding. But they clearly weren't competing for medals back in 2002 - though I thought they were the most robbed team in SLC. They skated two completely clean programs with two sets of triples in the freeskate. It's true their artistic impression was pretty flat, but so was T/M's.

Overall, I would still have S/Z 3rd, actually. Their fall was on a quad throw, and Hongbo had a shaky landing, but it was a bad landing and not a mistake in my eyes. P/T 4th, I/Z 5th, and T/M 6th.

RumbleFish
07-22-2011, 04:41 AM
Didn't the French judge do a good job of vilifying herself?

French judge denied any wrong doings later and said she was bullied to say what she didn't mean to say. I really don't know whether this is true or not, but I guess I'll never find out.


And do you honestly think Slutskaya should have won?
I am/was a huge Slutskaka fan and was rooting for her all the way. But, Hughes won fair and square.

Slutskaya should have won the SP, and Hughes should have been put 5th or 6th IMO. There is no gurantee that these ladies would have performed their FS the same way under different SP placements and FS starting order, but Slutskaya would've ended up with the gold even if she had placed 2nd in the FS behind Hughes.

RumbleFish
07-22-2011, 04:52 AM
Please.....Lepisto's bronze medal in at worlds was a complete joke. She didn't skate well at all there, especially compared to her olympic performance. No senior skater should be rewarded for doing double jumps at a world championship. She was ridiculously overmarked for PCS. She kept popping one jump after another. When she was finished it was obvious she had given a very disappointing performance. The fact that she had 2 disappointing programs and still managed to win a medal, falling out of her 2A in the SP as well, just goes to show what an awful judging system figure skating is using these days.

If you really think Lepisto deserved to win the bronze medal at worlds for those 2 performances than I would venture to say that you really have no interest in figure skating as a sport where execution should mean something.

Lepisto deserved her bronze medal because she did better than her competitors who screwed up even worse than she did, not because she was better than what she did a month ago at the olympics.