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Louise
07-20-2011, 06:10 PM
I would still love to hear a judge's explanation for Courtland/Reynolds over Kuchiki/Marval for the 1994 Olympic team (aside from reputation and longer pairing). C/R's high scores for that mess of a LP were a joke, and all the Olympic trip did for them was allow Karen to spend her time dishing on Tonya/Nancy to any reporter who would listen. Kuchiki and Marval were robbed.

Wasn't there talk about Todd's father giving USFS a hefty contribution right before? I thought I'd heard that. But now looking back on this performance I can see that their presentation wasn't all that bad, kind of good, esp Todd. Kuchiki and Marval botched one throw and didn't really nail their program either. But then again, in what world does a pair FS with falls on both throws, two more random falls, missed sbs jump, and a general unsteadiness get 5.6 for technical? You'd have thought it was G/G. Hmmph.

Tanja90
07-21-2011, 12:17 AM
The point of IJS is rewarding every single element of the program accordingly and not judging the program based on your personal, general opinion.

So if you think that 115 was too high, you should either point out what has been marked incorrectly or stop whining. :P

I'm not a judge and maybe I expressed myself not in the proper way..I should have said that: In my opionion 115 points for a 3 triples program is too high...my problems were more with her PCS because popping half of your jumps affects your program and shoud affect the components I think...but laura's were quite high...I know she has very good quality skills and everything but that's just my opinion so no reason to go on with it...

TheIronLady
07-21-2011, 06:15 AM
The point of IJS is rewarding every single element of the program accordingly and not judging the program based on your personal, general opinion.

So if you think that 115 was too high, you should either point out what has been marked incorrectly or stop whining. :P

I think using the criteria, her components marks were justly earned. She deserved the 6 point advantage over Ando in PCS. Doubles are permitted, and she elected to do them. It is one of the pitfalls of IJS that judges cannot intervene against a program with bails (and no edge triples), but she was scored appropriately for the merits of her presentation.

Japanfan
07-21-2011, 07:00 AM
I agree with the notion that two skating as one, but i never saw S/P skate like that. Time and time again we were told by certain section of english media (see, i am not mentioning the countries) how superior S/P were, how brilliant their choreography are, etc. sorry, i could never see the superior pair quality they had over B/S.


The notion that pairs should be always be 'two skating as one' is limited because some pairs programs are about two people and how they relate to each other. 'Love Story' was such a program and S/P clearly expressed the relationship between them and the tragedy that unfolded. There are many other examples, such as S/S's Pink Panther - two clearly defined individuals relating to one another, not two skating as one. Such programs are not necessarily inferior to those in which two skate as one.

And I feel exactly about B/S as you do about S/P - I never saw how superior they were or how brilliant their choreography was. People go on and on about the complexity of their programs, particularly their Olympic LP, and I think that complexity is somewhat of an illusion. Moskvina is a master at creating interesting and beautiful shapes with her skaters' bodies and movements, but that doesn't mean the program is more difficult.

I saw the two pairs as equal and enjoyed their rivalry. I'm one of the few who thought that S&Z should have won in 1999 (or 2000? the year they skated clean and B&S made mistakes). However, I loved B&S' Olympic SP and completed disagreed with the Canadian judge who put S&P in first place.


As for nationalism card, that was flavour of time(both 2001 and 2002), how to break russian domination in pairs, you could so see it from commentary of NBC commentary from sp at that 2002 games.

So what? Russia was always trying to maintain its domination in pairs. B&S were clearly being pushed as the next great Russian pair at the Nagano Olympics, when they were overscored (IMO) and almost beat D&K, who returned to competition as dark horses but to me were just so way ahead of B&S. If not for a late program error in the LP, B&S might have a won. And that would have been a travesty.

There is plenty of politicking over pairs within Russia itself.

a56
07-21-2011, 07:34 AM
I strongly disagree I'm sorry...115 points for a program with 3 triple jumps (2 of them being toe) is too high!
So what score should she have gotten? Can you look at the protocol and inform me about which technical elements were judged incorrectly? Program components are separate from the technical content, so you can't link the fact that she did X number of triple jumps to getting a lower program components score as a result.

Marco
07-21-2011, 09:10 AM
I saw the two pairs as equal and enjoyed their rivalry.

They probably were close enough to be equal from a competitive standpoint; but from a pure skating standpoint, B&S was clearly superior. On basics alone B&S was already miles ahead of S&P.

There really only was a rivalry because B&S was inconsistent on the throws and S&P would rarely miss one. But when B&S landed their throws, they were always spectacular. They were probably equally inconsistent on the SBS jumps.

To me, B&S was more like a Kwan & Cohen rolled into one, where S&P was more like a Nikodinov or Kirk. :shuffle:

Marco
07-21-2011, 09:25 AM
And the poor judging from 2002 was not just about B&S vs S&P either. The generous judging towards T&M and the under-appreciation of I&Z (whom I probably would have had in 3rd place)...

And then the travesty that was the judging of the ladies competition. Suguri, not Hughes, should have been in the final group of ladies. Kwan, Suguri and Cohen should all have been ahead of Slutskaya in the free.

And then the men. Plushenko should have been behind Abt, Li and Weiss after the short, and I really would have Honda ahead of Goebel in the free.

I guess I understand the judging, but just don't accept that certain rival skaters are deemed to be equal and only cleanliness should determine who is ahead (B&S vs S&P, Honda vs Goebel, Kwan vs Slutskaya, Hughes ahead of Butyrskaya and Suguri, etc). On the same vein, I am glad Plushenko was taken out of contention after the short, because Yagudin's free was clearly superior to anything that Plushenko was capable of doing, ever but the judges often saw them as equal.

Mafke
07-21-2011, 09:53 AM
They probably were close enough to be equal from a competitive standpoint; but from a pure skating standpoint, B&S was clearly superior. On basics alone B&S was already miles ahead of S&P.


I agree that in terms of pure skating skills B/S was ahead which made the lesser and greater bobbles that hobbled their whole career so frustrating (and kept me from enjoying them as much as I should have). They both had mad pairs skills and skated very, very, well together but were always a crashy landing or stumble or sad excuse for a death spiral away from being magic.

I always had the idea (body language when she wasn't skating) that she didn't much like skating in general and skating with him in particular. Maybe that's why I preferred P/T they didn't have B/S's potential but they skated with greater heart (for me).

S/P (though I was never a great fan) had an elusive quality in being better skaters together than either was by themselves, as a team they were more than the sum of their parts.

In SLC B/S clearly won the SP and the LP was a tossup that would come down to the particular priorities of particular judges. I certainly _enjoyed_ S/P's lp more (though I absolutely loathe Love Story) but I can understand putting either first. What I can't understand is people who make categorical statements about how it should have been a slam dunk for either pair.

I also kind of regard the SLC scandal like Al Capone's tax returns - the ISU establishment had gotten away with so much crap for so long (multilaterally) and so pissed off so much of the media with plausible deniability and loopholes that as soon as the media got a hold of anything remotely concrete they were going to take down the whole sport if they could.

Japanfan
07-21-2011, 11:02 AM
I always had the idea (body language when she wasn't skating) that she didn't much like skating in general and skating with him in particular. Maybe that's why I preferred P/T they didn't have B/S's potential but they skated with greater heart (for me).


Elena had little facial expression and rarely smiled. She and Anton were certainly a good looking pair, her being a petite and demure little china doll. . .but I always found her seeming vacancy took away from her performances.

I actually grew very fond of P/T and preferred them to B/S as well - they had passion and they also had their love for each other, which came across on the ice.



What I can't understand is people who make categorical statements about how it should have been a slam dunk for either pair.


The two pairs were presented as equal, much like Yagudin and Plushenko, in which case the one that skates clean would be expected to win. Many people have argued that 'Love Story' was an inferior program - and I agree, especially in comparison to Orchid - but Canadian commentators pointed out that S&P had checked in with the judges about returning to 'Love Story' and been told it would not work against their having a fair chance at the Olympics.

When B/S won, one Canadian commentator (Debbi Wilkes) was truly perplexed. She didn't scream "This is wrong" like Scott Hamilton did, she was just genuinely perplexed, and wondered if maybe it had been because going back to the old program had hurt them after all. That was before the French judge spilled the beans and everything blew up.

After the event people were all of a sudden arguing that B&S were always the superior pair and cries of a North American conspiracy began.

I agree with what you said about B/S, so eloquently, Mafke



They both had mad pairs skills and skated very, very, well together but were always a crashy landing or stumble or sad excuse for a death spiral away from being magic.


They did have the magic in the SP, and it was breathtaking.


I also kind of regard the SLC scandal like Al Capone's tax returns - the ISU establishment had gotten away with so much crap for so long (multilaterally) and so pissed off so much of the media with plausible deniability and loopholes that as soon as the media got a hold of anything remotely concrete they were going to take down the whole sport if they could.

Personally I believe there was more involved than just the French judge losing her cool. A man - I can't remember his very long name - was alleged to have been involved in fixing the results of the Olympics but the charges were dropped.

However, given S&P's questionable victory at 2001 Worlds and their win at GPF, a gambling set-up makes sense. Set S&P up as the favourties and then ensure that B&S win. Big money to be made in that. How it ties in to the judging I'm not sure, but I certainly believe it may have indeed be tied in.

The ISU back-pedalled by refusing to go forward with a full investigation - knowing of course that it would go nowhere good. It gave the second gold medal and the media was mollified.

Moral of the story: Don't wage a political battle against a North American team on America soil. Especially when that team skated to perfection.

RumbleFish
07-21-2011, 11:46 AM
Moral of the story: Don't wage a political battle against a North American team on America soil. Especially when that team skated to perfection.

It's interesting how people perceive things differently depending on where you are and who you listen to.

I always thought that Canadians were the ones who waged a political battle against B/S starting from 2000/2001 season.

NBC and rest of the American media seemed to go with Canadians due in part to help Americans secure a gold in ladies discipline. After all the wuz robbing in pairs and how they were vilifying the French during the ice dance event, it became extremely politically unpopular to give gold to Slutskaya and not an American lady.

It was hilarious how Tom Hammons kept on raising conspiracies involving the French ice dance couple of A/P and their winning results, when it was pretty clear that they were class of the field in ice dance.

Japanfan
07-21-2011, 11:59 AM
NBC and rest of the American media seemed to go with Canadians due in part to help Americans secure a gold in ladies discipline. After all the wuz robbing in pairs and how they were vilifying the French during the ice dance event, it became extremely politically unpopular to give gold to Slutskaya and not an American lady.


Didn't the French judge do a good job of vilifying herself?

And do you honestly think Slutskaya should have won?

I am/was a huge Slutskaka fan and was rooting for her all the way. But, Hughes won fair and square.

CaptCrunch
07-21-2011, 12:31 PM
The point of IJS is rewarding every single element of the program accordingly and not judging the program based on your personal, general opinion.

So if you think that 115 was too high, you should either point out what has been marked incorrectly or stop whining. :P

Please.....Lepisto's bronze medal in at worlds was a complete joke. She didn't skate well at all there, especially compared to her olympic performance. No senior skater should be rewarded for doing double jumps at a world championship. She was ridiculously overmarked for PCS. She kept popping one jump after another. When she was finished it was obvious she had given a very disappointing performance. The fact that she had 2 disappointing programs and still managed to win a medal, falling out of her 2A in the SP as well, just goes to show what an awful judging system figure skating is using these days.

If you really think Lepisto deserved to win the bronze medal at worlds for those 2 performances than I would venture to say that you really have no interest in figure skating as a sport where execution should mean something.

CaptCrunch
07-21-2011, 12:40 PM
I would still love to hear a judge's explanation for Courtland/Reynolds over Kuchiki/Marval for the 1994 Olympic team (aside from reputation and longer pairing). C/R's high scores for that mess of a LP were a joke, and all the Olympic trip did for them was allow Karen to spend her time dishing on Tonya/Nancy to any reporter who would listen. Kuchiki and Marval were robbed.


This post is right on the money. That pairs event was one of the worst examples of judging I have ever seen. C/R going to Olympics was a complete joke. They should have been anywhere from 6th-8th in that LP. Karen Courtland was a terrible skater who was always out there falling all over the place. For sure Kuchiki/Marval should have been 3rd there.

FWIW, Ina/Dungeon should have won the title that year in Detroit. Meno/ Sand did nothing difficult in the LP.

The whole judging of that event was plain lousy.

CaptCrunch
07-21-2011, 12:45 PM
RumbleFish said:

"It was hilarious how Tom Hammons kept on raising conspiracies involving the French ice dance couple of A/P and their winning results, when it was pretty clear that they were class of the field in ice dance."

So if A/P were the class of the field like you suggest then how come they only won the LP and the gold medal by a 5-4 split over Lobacheva/Averbuch? <G>

I agree with you that the right (and best) team won that night but it never should have been that close. Just another example of the Russians trying to fix all the skating events in SLC.

Remember L/A were only 3rd at Europeans yet at Olympics they missed a gold medal by only 1 judge.

CaptCrunch
07-21-2011, 01:01 PM
Regarding B/S vs S/P:


I agree that B/S had better stroking ability and they were super fast as a pair but there's no denying S/P had better execution than B/S. For my money B/S were sloppy skaters. They were mistake prone. They could never skate clean programs (except once at Europeans can't remember the year right now). Sale was better at landing the throws than Berez. and S/P had a much better twist than B/S.

Prior to the Olympics didn't S/P defeat B/Z something like 7 times in a row. That should say something about who was the better team.

Also not surprising that Sik. had that mistake on the 2A in the LP in SLC which was obvious to everyone. B/S just could never skate clean. Very little separated these 2 teams so a mistake like that can and should make the difference if the other team goes clean which is what happened that night in SLC.

Being in Vancouver I do agree that the decision in 2001 could have gone either way. Jaime did single the 2A attempt but B/S had some sloppy moments in their program as well (ie twist and she bent at the waist on one of the throws if I'm remembering correctly).

Being in Helsinki in 99 I too agree that Shen/Zhao should have won the LP. B/S had that awful fall on the throw which really marred the whole program. Again, this was typical of their skating. Overall though I didn't have a problem with B/S winning gold cause, for once, I thought S/Z got a gift with their SP placement. They missed an element there and I thought should have been 4th in the SP. Also FWIW, Petrova/Tikhonov should have won the bronze medal that year not the Poles.

My biggest problem with B/S was that they were always making mistakes and this really hurt their overall performances.

Sitting in the audience that fateful night in SLC it was obvious to me that S/P should have won.