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Marco
07-20-2011, 08:12 AM
To argue Yuna was overscored at 2010 Worlds, one must look at where her scores were derived from at that competition.

Despite Yuna's 2 mistakes against Asada's one downgrade, Asada was only 0.5 point ahead technically. Also, 2010 was a year where GOE on triple jumps was worth a lot - and Yuna got deservedly high GOEs on the elements she executed well. On the elements she made her mistakes on, she was penalised fairly. The element scores were very well documented.

In relation to her PCS, I must say her free last year brought out a lot of her strengths (flow, power, speed, ice coverage, ability to incorporate transitions and into her difficult elements too) and hid her weaknesses (line). On the other hand, Asada's program made her skating look slow, bland and heavy. Her program was not as complex. She was also markedly slower than Yuna. So I am not surprised by their respective PCS scores. Their PCS score differentials rightfully narrowed since the Olympics due to both Asada's improvement and Yuna's deterioration from their Olympic performances.

Similarly, to argue Lepisto did not deserve the bronze, one must study where she got her points. 3-6th place was all very close. All of Ando, Phaneuf and Kostner beat Lepisto in the free. But Ando lost it in the short, Phaneuf lost it on PCS (and rightfully I must add even though I love her) and Kostner was already judged very generously given how she skated (3 faulty jump landings). Lepisto rightfully blew them away on PCS and caught up with Kostner with her superior components.

The more interesting thing about 2010 Worlds was how Ando's PCS compared to Yuna's last season, and then again this season at Worlds when Asada was no longer a gold medal threat but she was.

allezfred
07-20-2011, 10:21 AM
S/Z of course developed into one of the most charismatic pairs of all time but they were very far away from that in 2001...

I disagree. They were two time World silver medallists and pretty charismatic already.

There were three teams at Vancouver Worlds who performed far and away better than Sale and Pelletier in the SP. That they were given third (and almost second) after a major error was absolutely outrageous.

Domshabfan
07-20-2011, 11:04 AM
Meh, it's not like B/S had a great reputation for being clean (which weakens Moskvina's usual dark mutterings). Without going back and looking at all the SPs as I recall S/P had better pairs quality than some of the cleaner pairs.

5/4 is pretty weak as a conspiracy especially against a team that was noted (at the time) as being all about the big tricks with not much pairs quality and lots of technique problems that the audience didn't notice but the judges had to pay attention to.

S/Z of course developed into one of the most charismatic pairs of all time but they were very far away from that in 2001...

S/P had pair quality :lol:. S/P won because it was held in Canada and audience were mostly North American.

Tanja90
07-20-2011, 11:14 AM
Similarly, to argue Lepisto did not deserve the bronze, one must study where she got her points. 3-6th place was all very close. All of Ando, Phaneuf and Kostner beat Lepisto in the free. But Ando lost it in the short, Phaneuf lost it on PCS (and rightfully I must add even though I love her) and Kostner was already judged very generously given how she skated (3 faulty jump landings). Lepisto rightfully blew them away on PCS and caught up with Kostner with her superior components.


I strongly disagree I'm sorry...115 points for a program with 3 triple jumps (2 of them being toe) is too high! you say that kostner's score were inflated...well..she skated a six triple program and the biggest mistake she had was was a step out on the loop; her steps are far superior to laura's (and anyone else I think), same thing for the spirals and she did good spins! Her PCS should have been a lot higher than laura's as the total score..but she was marked just a point above lepisto:confused:
As for Ando...she skated the second best long program that night after Mao..She didn't put a foot wrong! Strong jumps and she was living the program!

As for Mao's program well...it's a strange program but I think you can really appreciate it seeing it live! I did and IMO at worlds she was far superior! She wasn't slow at all! She attacked every note of the music, she gave me shiver...I preferred her a lot over yuna who gave me nothing...I remember that in the warm-up she impressed me a lot...she took the attention of everyone in the stadium. She didn't put a foot wrong and I thought that she would have destroyed the competition...but she did not. The jumps she performed right were top class (I cannot say the same for the other elements) but there was no spirit...a gost of the yuna of Vancouver..

Mafke
07-20-2011, 11:39 AM
S/P had pair quality :lol:.

You know? that whole two skating as one thing? Isn't that what kept B/S in front of S/Z despite the more spectacular nature of S/Z's tricks?

I was never really a fan of S/P (or B/S I actually preferred P/T to both of them).

and bringing up the nationalism card is definitely not cool...

Domshabfan
07-20-2011, 01:56 PM
You know? that whole two skating as one thing? Isn't that what kept B/S in front of S/Z despite the more spectacular nature of S/Z's tricks?

I was never really a fan of S/P (or B/S I actually preferred P/T to both of them).

and bringing up the nationalism card is definitely not cool...

I agree with the notion that two skating as one, but i never saw S/P skate like that. Time and time again we were told by certain section of english media (see, i am not mentioning the countries) how superior S/P were, how brilliant their choreography are, etc. sorry, i could never see the superior pair quality they had over B/S.

As for nationalism card, that was flavour of time(both 2001 and 2002), how to break russian domination in pairs, you could so see it from commentary of NBC commentary from sp at that 2002 games.

Mafke
07-20-2011, 02:27 PM
I agree with the notion that two skating as one, but i never saw S/P skate like that.
As for nationalism card, that was flavour of time(both 2001 and 2002), how to break russian domination in pairs, you could so see it from commentary of NBC commentary from sp at that 2002 games.



First point: fair enough, different strokes and all that. I didn't much like S/P but I thought they had the two as one down pretty well.

Second: not living in NAmerica I was extremely fortunate to not have to listen to NBC commentary at the time (especially regarding slc lp). A lot of the us vs them hysteria was completely indefensible but that didn't start (or end) with S/P and B/S. But Moskvina's conspiracy mumblings irritate me as well especially since B/S were almost never super clean.

One a scale of 1-10 with 1 being 96 ladies lp (Chen/Kwan) and 10 being 2008 (Nakiano slipping off the podium with the best lp of the night). I'd rate S/P's sp placement around a 3 (maybe 4) in bad judging. Home ice .... courtesies by the judges in their home country didn't begin or end with S/P (both German medals in 2004 were arguably host courtesy medals).
On the other hand, I think the LP with S/P over B/S is pretty defensible (more of a 'reasonable people can disagree' result).

miki88
07-20-2011, 02:37 PM
As for Mao's program well...it's a strange program but I think you can really appreciate it seeing it live! I did and IMO at worlds she was far superior! She wasn't slow at all! She attacked every note of the music, she gave me shiver...I preferred her a lot over yuna who gave me nothing...I remember that in the warm-up she impressed me a lot...she took the attention of everyone in the stadium. She didn't put a foot wrong and I thought that she would have destroyed the competition...but she did not. The jumps she performed right were top class (I cannot say the same for the other elements) but there was no spirit...a gost of the yuna of Vancouver..

I heard similar things from others who watched it live. Interestingly, Sonia Biancietti, who usually loves Yuna's skating, echoed similar feelings over the results in her writeup that year.

Lookingood
07-20-2011, 04:14 PM
At the end Mao won GOLD(yay! 2time World champ) Yuna gets Silver... I think its enough Yuna vs Mao in this thread.

Triple Butz
07-20-2011, 04:33 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxEObLwnTDU

Interesting. I wish we had access to the reviews for every skater. Wouldn't that be fun? :EVILLE:

I can't tell you how many times I've wished I could know what the tech. panel was thinking with certain calls!

Jenna
07-20-2011, 04:34 PM
I can't tell you how many times I've wished I could know what the tech. panel was thinking with certain calls!

I know. But I guess it would cause too much of a controversy to actually hear the discussion.

Ziggy
07-20-2011, 04:36 PM
Ice Dance at 2011 Worlds has shown that in the absence of a well-defined hierarchy, the judges have absolutely no bloody clue whatsoever... :wall:

Yazmeen
07-20-2011, 04:38 PM
I would still love to hear a judge's explanation for Courtland/Reynolds over Kuchiki/Marval for the 1994 Olympic team (aside from reputation and longer pairing). C/R's high scores for that mess of a LP were a joke, and all the Olympic trip did for them was allow Karen to spend her time dishing on Tonya/Nancy to any reporter who would listen. Kuchiki and Marval were robbed.

Ziggy
07-20-2011, 04:44 PM
I strongly disagree I'm sorry...115 points for a program with 3 triple jumps (2 of them being toe) is too high!

The point of IJS is rewarding every single element of the program accordingly and not judging the program based on your personal, general opinion.

So if you think that 115 was too high, you should either point out what has been marked incorrectly or stop whining. :P

Jenna
07-20-2011, 04:48 PM
Laura only did 3 triples, but IMO she had deserved the best PCS of the comp, even better than Mao and Yu-Na. So IMO her bronze is well deserved.

Sigh, if only Mirai did her double axel in the FS..she would have the bronze. Still saddens me to this day. :drama: