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operagirl
07-03-2011, 02:30 AM
Would Emily Samuelson have to sit out another year if she switched (to Canada and Poirier)? Her last competition was Worlds 2010.

ProgramerUSFS
07-03-2011, 03:49 AM
Would Emily Samuelson have to sit out another year if she switched (to Canada and Poirier)? Her last competition was Worlds 2010.

I read the 109 and am thinking that the waiting periods only apply if the member country doesn't release the skater. Am I correct, in that if the US would release Emily to Canada, she could go without any waiting?

kwanfan1818
07-03-2011, 04:13 AM
I read the 109 and am thinking that the waiting periods only apply if the member country doesn't release the skater. Am I correct, in that if the US would release Emily to Canada, she could go without any waiting?
There is a one-year waiting period for pairs and dance skaters and a two-year waiting period for singles for international competitions and championships with a release.

Since the last time Samuelson competed for the US internationally was Worlds 2010, she's already past the waiting period, with a release. Without a release, and with an exception, Worlds 2012 is the first championship in which she could compete, but she's already passed the waiting period for non-championship ISU competitions.

euterpe
07-03-2011, 07:21 AM
Does anyone really believe USFS would release Emily to skate for Canada?

kwanfan1818
07-03-2011, 07:30 AM
No, but she'd be eligible to skate for Worlds in Nice if the ISU granted an exception under Rule 109 of the ISU Constitution, and, with it, she could also skate in GP and other international events as soon as it was granted, since the last time she skated for the US was Worlds 2010.

just wondering
07-03-2011, 01:42 PM
Does anyone really believe USFS would release Emily to skate for Canada?

What if prior to the official break up, Emily engaged willingly in reconciliation attempts? What if she did all that USFS asked and did her absolute best to keep the team together? Would they ever release her knowing that she did not initiate the break up? Kind of a consolation prize for patiently sitting out the past season waiting on Evan & being so willing to make the partnership work?
I know this assumes a lot of facts we don't know are true, but I wondered if USFS would even consider such factors?

AJ Skatefan
07-03-2011, 01:47 PM
Does anyone really believe USFS would release Emily to skate for Canada?

Could the US and Canada do a trade? Yankowskas for Davison?

euterpe
07-03-2011, 03:52 PM
Could the US and Canada do a trade? Yankowskas for Davison?

Not exactly an even trade. Davison is a US citizen (he was born in California) and would not need a release from Skate Canada to skate for the US. Samuelson is not a Canadian citizen and has no compelling reason to switch countries.

MacMadame
07-03-2011, 06:52 PM
And it's not clear what his skating future is. We'd need to get a 'player to be named later' in addition for it to be a fair trade.

kwanfan1818
07-03-2011, 08:26 PM
Not exactly an even trade. Davison is a US citizen (he was born in California) and would not need a release from Skate Canada to skate for the US. Samuelson is not a Canadian citizen and has no compelling reason to switch countries.
Davison needs either a release from Skate Canada or to be granted an exception under rule 109. If granted an exemption, he could start doing international competitions as soon as it was granted, and Worlds 2012 as the first championships.

There was word that Poirier did not want to leave his coach or rink, which suggests that any new partner would have to move to Canada to train with him. That would make her a Canadian resident, but under normal circumstances, even if she were granted permanent residency status, she couldn't apply for citizenship until she had been physically present in Canada for three out of four years. To get an exception under Rule 109, she needs to be resident for a year and have applied for citizenship. So she'd need expedited permanent residency status and an exception to apply for citizenship early and to compete in Sochi, she'd need an exception to the physical presence rule.

USFS would have to apply for the exception for Davison. They'd look pretty greedy if they went to the ISU to ask for an exception for Davison, and refused to release Samuelson. I'm not sure if they want a repeat of the bitterness surrounding their refusal of Morgan Matthews, especially when they turned around and released her partner not that long after.

oubik
07-13-2011, 12:54 PM
The ISU doesn't care about nationals as far as sitting out periods are concerned. Neither Blanchard nor Volosozhar needed a release from the Ukrainian Federation to compete internal competitions or nationals in Russia.

Rule 109 applies because Volosozhar was granted Russian citizenship. She did need a release from the Ukrainian Federation to compete at 2011 Worlds, because according to rule 109, had they refused, she would have had to sit out for 24 months from her last ISU championships instead of 12 (with release), and the Russian Fed would have had to apply for an exception. However, she could have competed in other international competitions for Russia without release, if the ISU granted an exception.

You are right abour pair skaters and ice dancers, however in case of the solo skaters they have to either never skated in any domestic event of the other member (which they have to state in special document) or have the release permission from the other member.

oubik
07-13-2011, 12:58 PM
Davison needs either a release from Skate Canada or to be granted an exception under rule 109. If granted an exemption, he could start doing international competitions as soon as it was granted, and Worlds 2012 as the first championships.



Itīs even more complicated, he can apply for am exception but only 2 years after the waiting period and if he is wanting to skate at Worlds 2012 he has to apply for it one month (30 days) before the event at least which is unfortunately in conflict with his 2 years period ends.

The only way for him to start for the US in Nice is to have the Canadians YES permission.

oubik
07-13-2011, 01:04 PM
Also, to be clear, an ISU Championship is: Worlds, Euros, and 4CCs on the Senior level. GP events, the GPF and any Senior B events are not ISU Championship events. They are ISU events.

But I could be wrong about the GPF and I'm not sure about the Olympics because they are also under the control of the IOC and not just the ISU.

Nope: GPs, JGPs and Finals are ISU events, as well Team Trophy or any other cheesefest under ISU flags. International events are international calendar events, nothing more. So the 1 year period is for all of them but Champs (and even for pairs and ID there is only 1 year period for Champs), 2 years period is for Champs in solo figure skating and all other ISU branches (short track and speed skating). Synchro World is different like usually, the skater should be taking part in synchro team for other federation but do not skate in other disciplines (including speed ST ones) in the same season for his original federation. But what he/she needs is an approval from his original member. He can switch back to his original country the year after.

kwanfan1818
07-13-2011, 03:25 PM
You are right abour pair skaters and ice dancers, however in case of the solo skaters they have to either never skated in any domestic event of the other member (which they have to state in special document) or have the release permission from the other member.
There's nothing in Rule 109 text that states that this applies to pairs and dance teams only. 109.2.c. states (emphasis mine):


in the case of a pair or an ice dance couple, one partner at least must be a citizen of the country of the Member for which the pair or dance couple competes. The other partner may be a citizen or resident of a country of any other Member. The residence and permit requirements and the waiting periods stated above in paragraph 2.b, (i), (ii), and (iii) and in paragraph 3 do not apply to such partner. However, if such partner has already represented another Member, regardless of the discipline, the permit from the Member the Skater represented is 105 required and the waiting period 12 months from the day of the last competition in which the Skater represented another Member applies;

There would be no reason for this the wording to specify different rules for pairs and dance partners if the rule does not apply to singles skaters.


Itīs even more complicated, he can apply for am exception but only 2 years after the waiting period and if he is wanting to skate at Worlds 2012 he has to apply for it one month (30 days) before the event at least which is unfortunately in conflict with his 2 years period ends.

The only way for him to start for the US in Nice is to have the Canadians YES permission.
The rule itself does not state that the exception can only be granted after the waiting period, and not after the federation refusal, but that could be internal procedure.

Vagabond
07-13-2011, 05:14 PM
It's also worth noting that the Rule doesn't put the onus on a skater with dual citizenship to obtain the release from the first federation. Rather, it appears that the federation can put a block on the switch for a specified period of time, subject to any supervening decision by the ISU Council.

In Davison's case, Skate Canada would have little reason to put a block on the switch. If it did, the ISU Council would almost certainly overrule it. The switch wouldn't be "contrary to the spirit and purpose of the Rule." It's not as if the USFSA were some upstart federation trying to build a national team from scratch by getting quickie citizenships. Davison was born in the United States and has held U.S. citizenship all his life.

As far as I can tell, if Davison were healthy and paired up with Caitlin Yankowskas to skate for the U.S., they could participate in a Senior "B" as soon as they wanted to.

(If only, if only.... :saint:)