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AndyWarhol
07-02-2011, 06:36 AM
money + danny kwan.

The Observer
07-02-2011, 07:00 AM
Michelle still had it up until 2003 Worlds, which she won a year after losing the 2002 Olympics.

But after 2003 things seemed to go downhill. I think the new judging system was a factor. She never really adjusted to it, and she talked about how she was taking time off to study the new system and only compete in a couple of events a year, but it didn't work out.

AndyWarhol
07-02-2011, 10:27 AM
CoP was not kind to MKs style of skating. She also didn't have the flexibilty to do the beilmans and awful ispins the new system dictated at the time. It was hard to watch her do a fan spiral, and her coe spiral was pretty much worthless.

Cheylana
07-02-2011, 03:24 PM
money + danny kwan.
I've heard Danny Kwan blamed before, but, if true, I don't understand what he thought he had to gain by causing MK to go coachless at the Olympics. :confused:

LilJen
07-02-2011, 08:08 PM
I still wonder what the real reason for that split was?

Money?

Frank becoming an unbearable bitchy old queen?

I always figured there was an element of Michelle simply growing up and changing. You don't necessarily have the same needs at 11 as you do at 21 (or however old she was). People change a LOT during the teen years, and it always sounded to me like Frank wasn't acknowledging that with Michelle and allowing her the space or change or freedom (or whatever) she felt she needed. Seems plausible to me.

I'm STILL really, really disappointed with the Samuelson/Bates breakup. I guess it hasn't been that long since it was announced, but it really was shocking.

arakwafan2006
07-05-2011, 03:58 AM
The breakup between Michelle and Carroll really shocked me (perhaps still do). Although I understand the possible reasons for the breakup, I felt the timing was not good at all.

oof... you can say that again. The thing that always shocked me was how the masses never thought that Michelle was an arrogant nutjob for a year of her life at least. I mean, how insane is it for a skater to decide to not only break up with her coach; one of the best out there and skate alone, IN AN OLYMPIC YEAR!!!! I mean, there is not possibly a worse thing to decide. Kwan came out though the bronze medalist and not the lunatic. That shocked me the most.

arakwafan2006
07-05-2011, 04:06 AM
Michelle still had it up until 2003 Worlds, which she won a year after losing the 2002 Olympics.

But after 2003 things seemed to go downhill. I think the new judging system was a factor. She never really adjusted to it, and she talked about how she was taking time off to study the new system and only compete in a couple of events a year, but it didn't work out.

For her whole career though, Michelle's camp would talk of "uping the ante" or adding difficulty of sorts to her skating. Never happened. Michelle went a long time spending her time above ground so to speak with her other interests and kept her head in the sand with regards to adding jumps that she needed to be competitive. Its sad that the very thing she ignored did her in at the olympics both times. She pretended like she didnt really NEED a 3/3 combination and both times her competitors had some form of two of them in their free skates. I never understood how a 3toe/3toe was upping anything. I think Michelle would have had a great 3flip/3 toe although on second thought, the triple flip gave her trouble at both games (wasnt that the jump she was shown falling on in the practice in Torino that caused her to withdraw?). I also think that under the 6.0 system, the judges at the 98 games would have gave her the nod for the gold. Salt Lake City which is the one program from her that is too painful for me to watch just slipped through her fingers.

Vash01
07-05-2011, 07:03 AM
For her whole career though, Michelle's camp would talk of "uping the ante" or adding difficulty of sorts to her skating. Never happened. Michelle went a long time spending her time above ground so to speak with her other interests and kept her head in the sand with regards to adding jumps that she needed to be competitive. Its sad that the very thing she ignored did her in at the olympics both times. She pretended like she didnt really NEED a 3/3 combination and both times her competitors had some form of two of them in their free skates. I never understood how a 3toe/3toe was upping anything. I think Michelle would have had a great 3flip/3 toe although on second thought, the triple flip gave her trouble at both games (wasnt that the jump she was shown falling on in the practice in Torino that caused her to withdraw?). I also think that under the 6.0 system, the judges at the 98 games would have gave her the nod for the gold. Salt Lake City which is the one program from her that is too painful for me to watch just slipped through her fingers.

I have to disagree with some of what you wrote. It's true that Michelle did not really try to up the ante in terms of jumps. However, a perfectly done 3t-3t was nothing to sneer at. Tara and Sarah were both exceptions in terms of doing 3-3 combos those days (and Sarah always underrotated hers, which was forgiven by the 6.0 system). Most other top ladies were not doing 3-3's. Michelle's presentation was far superior to the two young ladies, and with just a little luck she could have won an OGM. You do have to be lucky to win an OGM; talent alone may not be enough every time.

Michelle did not do the 3t in 98 because of a toe injury, and not because she could not do a 3t-3t combination. Initially it was planned, but the 3t was too painful due to the injury. She had to replace the 3t with a 3R. You wrote that she had problems with the 3f in BOTH Olympics. She landed a clean 3f in 1998. It was a tentative landing, but she landed it on one foot. It's not like she missed the jump completely or that she two-footed.

In 2002 I think not having a coach the whole season really hurt her. This time the 3f did her in, but again I think it was the result of trying to do too much on her own. This one was a missed jump, but it's amazing how close she was to still win the OGM.

About Torino you are completely off, IMO. Michelle had a hip injury the whole season. It became aggravated during the practice and she had to withdraw. It's not like she could not do a 3f. She had done it numerous times in her career. She did not withdraw because she kept falling on the 3f, but because of a serious injury, which eventually turned out to be (eligible) career ending for her.

So the only time she truly missed the 3f was in 2002.

Cloudy_Gumdrops
07-15-2011, 06:23 AM
Not so much shocking, but I remember being really disappointed at Kalesavich/Parchem's breakup.

I sooooo loved them. She couldn't jump, but she just had it you know.

I never could warm to him with Hinzmann.

museksk8r
07-15-2011, 04:02 PM
Frank becoming an unbearable bitchy old queen?

It's got my vote. I'm not a fan at all of Carroll's personality. :shuffle:

attyfan
07-15-2011, 04:34 PM
CoP was not kind to MKs style of skating. She also didn't have the flexibilty to do the beilmans and awful ispins the new system dictated at the time. It was hard to watch her do a fan spiral, and her coe spiral was pretty much worthless.

CoP didn't even come into existence until Michelle had about a decade of competing at the senior international level. Furthermore, during this decade, Michelle was also touring ... and, during the "post whack boom", COI would be doing 60+ or 70+ shows per tour in non-Oly years. Michelle, therefore had an unusually large amount of wear and tear on her body, that (IMO) would make it even more difficult for her to change styles than it would be for another skater.

IMO, the one of the two safest bets on the Kwan/Carroll split is that neither party will ever tell.

AndyWarhol
07-15-2011, 06:09 PM
CoP didn't even come into existence until Michelle had about a decade of competing at the senior international level. Furthermore, during this decade, Michelle was also touring ... and, during the "post whack boom", COI would be doing 60+ or 70+ shows per tour in non-Oly years. Michelle, therefore had an unusually large amount of wear and tear on her body, that (IMO) would make it even more difficult for her to change styles than it would be for another skater.

IMO, the one of the two safest bets on the Kwan/Carroll split is that neither party will ever tell.

correct.

aliceanne
07-17-2011, 04:07 PM
Why does everyone assume that there is anything to tell? It just seemed to me to be a relationship that ran it's course.