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euterpe
08-30-2011, 11:58 PM
Cannuscio / McManus have aged out of Juniors and are scheduled to compete at Nepela.

kwanfan1818
08-31-2011, 12:22 AM
Thanks!

Then they are in the top three of the top 75 alternates list, and the host nation could pick them first, if there we so many alternates needed that they got down to top 75.

Conga
08-31-2011, 12:33 AM
Kriengkrairut/Giulietti-Schmitt are only in the running for another GP after all those guaranteed a second event get one.

I am really confused now. Am I understanding this correctly that the last TBD for SA would definitely go to L/C if the US wants to pick a US team? If that's the case, then why all the delay?

kwanfan1818
08-31-2011, 12:51 AM
USFS can pick any US team they want for that spot, except for a team that doesn't qualify (ex: already has two spots, has pulled out of another GP). If they pick a team that hasn't already met the minimum score requirements or wasn't top 75 in last year's SB list, that couple must attend a senior B before SA to meet the minimum score requirements to be able to skate. They only have to use the alternates list if they give up a TBD USA slot, which they're not going to do.

K/G-S and C/McM can only get another GP from the alternates list after all of the teams above them in the alternates hierarchy get their events, and they're both pretty far down the list. Also, K/G-S's event is one of the later ones, which means they can't be considered for NHK twice. That's why I wrote the best shot for them is a host pick.

Who are L/C?

Twizzler
08-31-2011, 03:04 AM
Who are L/C?

Canuscio/Lorello maybe???

Conga
08-31-2011, 03:14 AM
Canuscio/Lorello maybe???

No, Lichtman/Copely.

Conga
08-31-2011, 03:22 AM
Now we await the announcement for the last spot. So many choices. Who will it be? C/L, K/G-S, L/C, C/B, O/C? They are all eligible to be selected, right? I don't know about the new team of S/G. They don't even have a coaching situation set up, but you never know!

^^^ Now that I think I understand how the alternate list works!

kwanfan1818
08-31-2011, 05:39 AM
No, Lichtman/Copely.

Unless Samuelson/Gilles can/are ready to get on the list -- they'll be at the top as a split couple -- Lichtman/Copely are 2nd on the alternates list after Pukash/Guerreiro. L/C are scheduled for CoC, and P/G for SC.

I think it's pretty likely that L/C will get to substitute for someone by the end of the season, because the chances that only one couple will be hurt or ill by the end of the season are slim based on history, and hopefully they've applied for Russian visas for the top teams on the alternates list who need them. Apart from their countries host events, there no other event where there are three Russian or three US teams to prevent either team from taking any other spot that opens up, apart from travel distance in back-to-back events. However, if USFS wants to be certain, they could award the TBD spot at SC to L/C.

taz'smum
08-31-2011, 06:57 AM
Kriengkrairut/Giulietti-Schmitt are only in the running for another GP after all those guaranteed a second event get one:

Pushkash/Guerreiro (SC)
Lichtman/Copely (CoC)
Reed/Reed (NHK)
Tobias/Stagniunas (RC)
Huang/Zheng (TEB)
Gorshkova/Butikov (TEB)
Coomes/Buckland (CoC)
Ralph/Hill (CAN)



Kwanfan1818, if I've understood what has gone before in this thread correctly, everyone in the top 24 world ranking and season's best will be guaranteed a 2nd GP before anyone outside these top 24 gets to receive a GP, unless they are a host pick? Could you kindly point me to the ISU communication or quote me the wording of where this was stated?

From Paul/Islam's allocation of a 2nd GP, it looks to me as if the seasons best is now being used to decide who is at the top of the substitute list, and the top 24 world ranking is no longer being considered in the substitute list. If this is the case, there are couples like Coomes/Buckland who are in the top 24 world ranking, but won't get a 2nd GP until everyone above them in the season's best gets one first.

Conga
08-31-2011, 07:19 AM
However, if USFS wants to be certain, they could award the TBD spot at SC to L/C.

I think you meant SA and not SC. With your analysis, L/C is in a good position for a second GP anyway, so maybe K/G-S might be favored for the last SA slot. On the other hand, since it appears that USFS is trying to give more teams the opportunity to compete internationally this season, it could go to C/L. Are there enough Senior B slots left for K/G-S, C/B and C/L? Sorry, don't mean to hijack the thread. :shuffle:

kwanfan1818
08-31-2011, 10:20 AM
Kwanfan1818, if I've understood what has gone before in this thread correctly, everyone in the top 24 world ranking and season's best will be guaranteed a 2nd GP before anyone outside these top 24 gets to receive a GP, unless they are a host pick? Could you kindly point me to the ISU communication or quote me the wording of where this was stated?
It's in the GP Announcement, which is a .pdf file you can download from here:

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,4844-136494-137802-nav-list,00.html

Section 7.6, third paragraph after the bulleted list, emphasis added:


The alternate list needs to be worked through in ranking order for the top 24 ranked skaters/couples according to their SB and/or their WS until all of such skaters/couples will have received the invitation to a second event. All other skaters/couples of the alternate list will be grouped in top ranked groups of three (3) skaters, out of which the respective organizing member may pick one skater/couple for invitation.

This is different than the third and fourth bullet points which only mention top 24 SB.


From Paul/Islam's allocation of a 2nd GP, it looks to me as if the seasons best is now being used to decide who is at the top of the substitute list, and the top 24 world ranking is no longer being considered in the substitute list.
Not necessarily. It may mean that they're using the SB list to rank the skaters, regardless of whether they were top 24 SB or top 24 WR to set the order, while still ranking the top 24 WS above the top 75 SB.


If this is the case, there are couples like Coomes/Buckland who are in the top 24 world ranking, but won't get a 2nd GP until everyone above them in the season's best gets one first.
From Paul/Islam's allocation of a 2nd GP, it looks to me as if the seasons best is now being used to decide who is at the top of the substitute list, and the top 24 world ranking is no longer being considered in the substitute list. If this is the case, there are couples like Coomes/Buckland who are in the top 24 world ranking, but won't get a 2nd GP until everyone above them in the season's best gets one first.
They're clearly using the SB list to rank the skaters, because if they were using the best of WS and SB, Huang/Zheng, with WS rank of 13, would have gotten the spot at SA. That doesn't mean, though, that they aren't considered WS in ranked order below the top 24 SB.

However, if they were not also including the top 24 WR in allocating a second spot, the next bullet point after top 24 SB is top 75 SB, and the top 75 SB rule is that the host can choose any of the top three: they don't have to go in exact order. Not only that, the way the paragraph is written, it could be interpreted that the next top 75 team on the list moves up to the top three, and, top three being equal, there's no obligation to ever select two out of the three teams in the original top three.

For example:

Top 24 SB:
Pushkash/Guierreiro
Lichtman/Copely
Reed/Reed
Tobias/Stagniunas

If they then take the top 24 WS in SB order, the exact* order would be:

Huang/Zheng
Gorshkova/Butikov
Coomes/Buckland
Ralph/Hill

Then the top 75 -- choose one of the top three -- would be:

Kriengkrairut/Guilietti-Schmitt
Heekin-Canedy/Shakalov -- split?
Zahorski/Miart -- he's injured?
Cannuscio/McManus
Frolenkova/Kasalo
Guignard/Fabri
Cannuscio/Lorello
Walden/Edwards

If they are not taking into consideration the top 24 WS and go straight to the top 75 list, then the top 75 list would be:

Kriengkrairut/Guilietti-Schmitt
Huang/Zheng
Heekin-Canedy/Shakalov -- split?
Zahorski/Miart -- he's injured?
Gorshkova/Butikov
Coomes/Buckland

*Assuming no conflicts, like already three from the country in the event, the couple is already in the event, there's a back-to-back travel issue, there's a visa issue

If top 24 WS is considered, Gorshkova/Butikov and Coomes/Buckland are guaranteed to be the sixth and seventh alternates, while if top 24 WS is not considered, the best case scenario is that C/B would be picked sixth -- if H-C/S split, Z/M injury, and two couple above them are skipped by the second host top 75 pick -- or worst case scenario is that they are skipped every time a lower-ranked couple moves into the top three.



I think you meant SA and not SC.
Sorry, I did mean SA.

taz'smum
08-31-2011, 10:38 AM
Thank you so much kwanfan1818 for giving such a detailed explanation!
Thank you for the link confirming the 2 GP's for the top 24 world and SB ranked couples. Which as you say appears to be contradicted in later communications.

I'm interested to know why you haven't included Hurtado/Diaz in your top 24 world rankings, as they are ranked No. 23 and have only been assigned the Bompard GP so far?

Alexis Miart will be back on the ice within 2 to 4 weeks and is aiming for the Bompard GP.

Beefcake
08-31-2011, 03:24 PM
Boo/Hiss! :mad: If not for that late fall at USNs, KRiGS would've gone to 4CC and been far higher on the alternates' list/sitting pretty for a 2nd GP. Er, or are you saying that they can and may still be the Skate America homie choice? [Confusing.]

haribobo
08-31-2011, 05:09 PM
Boo/Hiss! :mad: If not for that late fall at USNs, KRiGS would've gone to 4CC and been far higher on the alternates' list/sitting pretty for a 2nd GP. Er, or are you saying that they can and may still be the Skate America homie choice? [Confusing.]

Not true- K/G-S were 16 points out of 3rd place (all top 3 US teams went to 4cc) so 1 fall did not keep them out of 4CC. But yes they could have overtaken 4th without the fall. But at least they have 1 GP event. Cannuscio/Lorello who won the FD at Lake Placid and finished right behind KGS at Nationals have nothing at this point, so I think it would be most fair for them to get SA.

Conga
08-31-2011, 06:09 PM
Not true- K/G-S were 16 points out of 3rd place (all top 3 US teams went to 4cc) so 1 fall did not keep them out of 4CC. But yes they could have overtaken 4th without the fall. But at least they have 1 GP event. Cannuscio/Lorello who won the FD at Lake Placid and finished right behind KGS at Nationals have nothing at this point, so I think it would be most fair for them to get SA.

I'm not sure about fairness. I like C/L and was totally surprised that they didn't immediately get either the SA slot or at least one of the Nebelhorn spots--especially since that roster is not as difficult as it has been the past couple of years. Part of Champs Camp would have been assessing K/G-S since they didn't do LP. C/L had the opportunity to do two GP last season,while K/G-S had only one and overall K/G-S finished stronger than C/L.

The other question might be where any of the teams might get more points. The GP are all pretty tough this season and so those that are not the top teams may be better off going to a Senior B and doing well. At least we should know soon what the USFS has decided.