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LilJen
08-30-2011, 12:30 AM
Don't suppose there are any open spots for Samuelson/Gilles?

kwanfan1818
08-30-2011, 12:43 AM
Don't suppose there are any open spots for Samuelson/Gilles?

With the following caveats:

1. Under two of the three statements for eligibility as split couples (no limit and last two seasons), yes, based on Samuelson's 9th place with Bates at 2009-10 Worlds

2. There isn't a deadline somewhere outside the GP Announcement that's past or becomes past before S/G want to compete at GP

3. USFS doesn't have it's own criteria for attending international competitions that blocks them

4. They want to compete that early

The tricky part is that they'd go to the top of the list, as a split couple, and it isn't clear whether there's a cut off for joining the alternates list, or if, apart from winning one of the Senior B's, a couple can be added at any time. The way the Senior B winners has been worded, they go to the bottom of the list; it isn't clear if the ISU will allow anyone to skip the queue after a cut-off point.

Stephanie
08-30-2011, 01:47 PM
Paul/Islam have been added to Skate America :cheer:

Conga
08-30-2011, 01:57 PM
Paul/Islam have been added to Skate America :cheer:

Now we await the announcement for the last spot. So many choices. Who will it be? I/L, K/G-S, L/C, C/B, O/C? They are all eligible to be selected, right? I don't know about the new team of S/G. They don't even have a coaching situation set up, but you never know!

nylynnr
08-30-2011, 02:04 PM
Not to mention coming up with the 17 scenarios they missed.

Building in some wiggle-room is often one of the goals when drafting rules. In this regard the ISU is successful.

toddlj
08-30-2011, 03:54 PM
So, since you've been proven the resident expert kwanfan1818, the dance sub list is now:
(maybe Samuelson/Gilles,) Pushkash/Guerriero, Lichtman/Copely, Reed/Reed, and Tobias/Stagniunas?

kwanfan1818
08-30-2011, 05:12 PM
So, since you've been proven the resident expert kwanfan1818, the dance sub list is now:
(maybe Samuelson/Gilles,) Pushkash/Guerriero, Lichtman/Copely, Reed/Reed, and Tobias/Stagniunas?

Most probably.

If they were looking for the highest ranking of the SB or WS, they would have chosen Huang/Zheng, whose WS is 13 vs. Paul/Islam's 18 SB, or if they were choosing skaters who were top 24 both in SB and WS, they would have chosen Pukash/Guerriero, whose SB and WR is 19. Even if they allowed or ruled that P/G couldn't do back-to-back SA to SC, which I doubt, Reed/Reed are the only other couple with top 24 in both and would have been next in line. (Their first scheduled GP is RC, and they train in NA).

While it's possible that Huang/Zheng were offered and were able to turn down SA -- their first GP is listed for TEB weeks after SA, and they train with Linichuk in North America -- in which case Paul/Islam would have been next in line, I'm guardedly optimistic that by selecting P/I, they have shown they are making assignments in the order of the SB list.

Thank you for the info, Stephanie. I think people attending SA are in for a treat: Paul/Islam are beautiful skaters. It makes an early season match-up with Ralph/Hill, and it's going to be a tough battle for bronze at Canadian Nationals, where Gilles/Poirier can compete.

Sedge
08-30-2011, 05:48 PM
No, not for NHK as split couple alternates, who "inherit" the minimum score of the old couple. (In this case, the higher of the former scores.)



I have to remind myself continually that the 'reformed' couples are able to access the old pairing's SB but their World Standing is 0 according to ISU Comm # 1629.


Communication No. 1629
ISU WORLD STANDINGS FOR SINGLE & PAIR SKATING AND ICE DANCE
ISU SEASONíS WORLD RANKING
(Replaces ISU Communication 1460)

2.4 Pairs and Ice Dance couples with a new partner will start with 0 points. There is no transfer of
points to either partner; the previous partnership will be removed from the World Standings.


That will mean that they have to compete early and often to raise their World Standing this year. This , I imagine , is their only year to be grandfathered in at the top of the list.
Next year...Samuelson Gilles will be at the top of the list and may get 2 spots...as will Poirier Gilles. The new pairings accessing GP spots this season will only be able to substantially improve their World standing if they make the World or 4 Continents team.I am not certain they will move up the World standings too quickly on the GP circuit..in the rich fields and lesser points of the GP.

It's a little easier traction for the people who can afford and access Nebelhorn/Finlandia/Nepela/Graz.

I think that is how it plays out.

kwanfan1818
08-30-2011, 06:18 PM
I have to remind myself continually that the 'reformed' couples are able to access the old pairing's SB but their World Standing is 0 according to ISU Comm # 1629.
The assumption is that they'll make a minimum score for championships, still the much lower TES-only minimums, at the GP.


That will mean that they have to compete early and often to raise their World Standing this year. This , I imagine , is their only year to be grandfathered in at the top of the list.

As long as they stay together, yes. While comeback skaters who aren't guaranteed one by still being top 24 in WR (Lepisto, Zhang/Zhang, Lysacek) can use a one-time only comeback card for two guaranteed spots. However, there's nothing in the rules that says if couples split more than once that their new partnership doesn't get grandfathered in as well.

It's interesting that they've in several places said that the split couples could go back two seasons, but that the new couple inherits the minimum score of the old for GP purposes, because that would mean taking a SB from two seasons prior and comparing it to a SB from the prior season, with different rules, points values, and guidelines.


Next year...Samuelson Gilles will be at the top of the list and may get 2 spots...as will Poirier Gilles.
Hopefully. (So will Crone and a new partner, if they're eligible and healthy.) I wonder how they will decide who's higher on the list, when two new partnerships (G/P, C/x?) are using the same competition's placement for a spot on the alternates list.


The new pairings accessing GP spots this season will only be able to substantially improve their World standing if they make the World or 4 Continents team.I am not certain they will move up the World standings too quickly on the GP circuit..in the rich fields and lesser points of the GP.

It's a little easier traction for the people who can afford and access Nebelhorn/Finlandia/Nepela/Graz.

I think that is how it plays out.
All true. While they can use a GP to try to get a top 24 SB score for next season, the worst case scenario is that one GP is all they get for the year for points, because they don't make the world team and all of the top US teams go to 4C's in Colorado Springs for points and $$$.

pattycake
08-30-2011, 07:45 PM
Why aren't Cannuscio/Lorello in the mix?

kwanfan1818
08-30-2011, 08:07 PM
They are 49th on the SB list and weren't guaranteed a spot, and they're very low on the alternates list, with about 10 couples guaranteed a second spot before they're even considered.

TBD at Skate America is the best they can hope for, since they don't need to go to a Senior B for a minimum score.

pattycake
08-30-2011, 08:24 PM
Thanks Kwanfan 1818 . I really like them. Are the chances for the TBD spot pretty good?

Libertango
08-30-2011, 11:00 PM
I'd say it's between them and Kriengkrairut & Giulietti-Schmitt, right?
Maybe also Gilles/Samuelson if they are ready/don't get another GP.

pattycake
08-30-2011, 11:28 PM
So when will this last spot be determined??

kwanfan1818
08-30-2011, 11:35 PM
Kriengkrairut/Giulietti-Schmitt are only in the running for another GP after all those guaranteed a second event get one:

Pushkash/Guerreiro (SC)
Lichtman/Copely (CoC)
Reed/Reed (NHK)
Tobias/Stagniunas (RC)
Huang/Zheng (TEB)
Gorshkova/Butikov (TEB)
Coomes/Buckland (CoC)
Ralph/Hill (CAN)

After that, the host nation can choose any couple in the top three of the remaining SB 75 list. Even though K/G-S are at the top of the list, the host nation could choose one of the next two under them. Of the next two, I think I read that Heekin-Canedy/Shakalov are no longer skating together and Alexis Miart is injured, which would make Yu/Wang (CoC) and Frolenkova/Kasalo the next two seniors on the list, unless Cannuscio/McManus are seniors, making them third on the list.

(Almost all of the Juniors are names on paper to me, and Sylvia has to correct all of my mistakes...)

Since K/G-S are scheduled for NHK, for late-season substitutions, H/Z and G/B couldn't be double-booked for TEB and T/S couldn't be for RC, but it's a long shot without a host pick.