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Ziggy
07-27-2011, 01:39 AM
I agree with the exception that the Senior B scores get mixed in with the Top 75 group. That would put top Senior B scores behind the Top 24 SB and WS on the list but ahead of some top 75 skaters if the Senior B score is high enough. Putting the Senior B top scorers behind the Top 75 is pointless.

Now, with this "improved" alternates list AND the GP minimum scores I don't see why they had to reduce the number of GP spots. :(

Oh, I didn't know that!

Still, their scores will count for Top 75 for the current season. But alternate lists are decided based on last season's scores...

So we all hoped for clear substitute rules, yet we have to decipher the meaning of that communication... :P

Coco
07-27-2011, 01:44 AM
I think they reduced the spots because of the likelihood of the host country having to fly in expensive alternates.

Now that they can't grab the least expensive, or most politically expediant, alternate, they want less skaters, imo.

Back to Ziggy's earlier point - is it established that a skater doesn't have to WIN a senior B WITH a qualifying score to be "live" on the alternates list? They simply have to earn the qualitfying score at one of those competitions, regardless of where they place. Right?

Ziggy
07-27-2011, 01:47 AM
Back to Ziggy's earlier point - is it established that a skater doesn't have to WIN a senior B WITH a qualifying score to be "live" on the alternates list? They simply have to earn the qualitfying score at one of those competitions, regardless of where they place. Right?

It's two different things.

If you already are on the alternate list, having met one of the conditions described above, then all you need to do is to earn a minimum score at one of the Autumn comps.

But if you aren't on the alternate list, then your only chance of getting on it is winning one of the events.

Which sounds extremely unfair because:

- your score at one of the autumn comps could place you in top 75 for last season but it's only the winning which counts

- scores at autumn comps can vary wildly, as shown in my example

Proustable
07-27-2011, 01:55 AM
I'm rather confused.

SamuraiK
07-27-2011, 04:32 AM
Well like it's been said, skaters out of the Top 75 SB list didn't even stand a chance in the old system, and it's actually a bit odd that everyone else, from seeded skaters to the 75th in the list, gets their pick order based on last season, while the Senior B winners will do it based on the current season, even though its for the 76th place :D.

I thought the Seniors B will be used for skaters in the list to actually move up in the alternate list but apparently the order is already set in stone and all the Senior B will do is help the bottom skaters (who realistically also don't stand a chance) to get the minimum score. Oh well...

I do like that split teams in the Top 12 at Worlds can get in the Grand Prix easier than in the past but NOT before the Top24 SB-WS teams with only 1 event.

Jenna
07-27-2011, 05:00 AM
The off season wouldn't be complete if I wasn't :duh: trying to decipher the latest ISU communications.

hoptoad
07-27-2011, 02:57 PM
So we all hoped for clear substitute rules, yet we have to decipher the meaning of that communication... :P
I think the ISU just throws out whatever rules sound good at the time, and waits for FSU to sort through the actual consequences. :lol:

SamuraiK
07-27-2011, 03:17 PM
Thanks Kwanfan 1818.


ComeBack skater rule appears to be a Plushenko /Lysacek rule.

It was actually a Sasha Cohen/ Shen & Zhao rule, who were the first who benefited from it back in the 09-10 season.:D:lol:

euterpe
07-27-2011, 05:13 PM
The ISU could resolve all the questions by publishing the substitute list.....

Ziggy
07-27-2011, 05:27 PM
Well like it's been said, skaters out of the Top 75 SB list didn't even stand a chance in the old system, and it's actually a bit odd that everyone else, from seeded skaters to the 75th in the list, gets their pick order based on last season, while the Senior B winners will do it based on the current season, even though its for the 76th place :D.

The current season should count for everyone.

It would be simple, transparent and would create a huge incentive for skaters to compete in the autumn events.

One can dream.

mag
07-27-2011, 09:02 PM
The current season should count for everyone.

It would be simple, transparent and would create a huge incentive for skaters to compete in the autumn events.

One can dream.

Your biggest problem is you are being too reasonable and logical. :P A friend said the same thing to me the other day when I was ranting about a local skating issue. I think her exact words were "there you go again being logical. Don't you know that logic has no place in figure skating :rollin:"

rhumba
07-28-2011, 04:21 AM
Pairs:

Maximum spots:
Active top 1-12 got two each, except Savchenko/Szolkovy and Kavaguti/Smirnov, who opted for three.
Zhang/Zhang
Illiushechkina/Maisuradze (top 24 SB and top 24 WR)

There was no replacement for Yankowskas/Coughlin in the seeds, due to a change in the rules this year.

Again, here it isn't clear whether Zhang/Zhang qualified for their two spots under the "come-back" skater clause, or by placing having a top 24 WR (21) and not having to have a minimum score under 2.2.b

Vise/Baldwin qualified as a host pick by scoring 141.37 at Ice Challenge 2010 in Graz. Canac/Bonheur qualified by placing 38th on the SB list, but, according to this post (http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3234450&postcount=100), they have split.

1. Come-back skaters -- TBD

2. Split pairs

Based on last season, at least Denney/Coughlin, and Yankowskas, if she finds a partner.

3. 2. Top 24 SB with one assignment, not including retired/split skaters (Mylene/Brodeur, Della Monica/Kokon, Barrett, Simpson/Miller):


Sui/Han (CAN)
Lawrence/Swiegers (CAN)
Gerboldt/Enbert (RUS)
Castelli/Shnapir (NHK)
Stolbova/Klimov (FRA)
Zhang/Wang (CHN, #18 WR)
Marley/Brubaker (USA)


3. Top 24 WR, but not top 24 SB, with one assignment:


Kadlecova/Bidar (CHN, #24 WR)
Dong/Wu (FRA, #16 WR)

Kemp/King theoretically should have one based on their WR of 13, but 2.2.b is murky. (They did not qualify a minimum score.) Did the GBR federation not submit their names to the ISU?

4. All other skaters in the top 75 SB; "Jr." means SB was from a Jr. competition)

Yu/Jin (CAN)
Novik/Kuznetsov
Cain/Reagan (RUS)
Steele/Schultz (CHN)
Purich/Schultz (NHK)
Jones/Gaskell (RUS)
Silaeva/Minchuk-Jr.

Must qualify a minimum score at one of the fall senior B's:


Kemp/King (maybe not, since they are #13 in the WR list)
Zhang/Toth
Zabijako/Kulbach
Petaikina/Kuruykov-Jr.

and every other intact pair skating seniors to the bottom of the list: there were only 67 pairs on the SB list.

5. Winners of Fall senor B's: TBD.

Base on the 'split team" rule, Denney/Coughlin (for pairs)and Chock/Bates (for ice dance) would be on the top list of substitute teams?? Will they get two assignments if there is two vacancy or will have to go to next on the list first before getting the second assignment?

flowerpower
07-28-2011, 04:47 AM
Does the "split team" rule apply only to skaters who were active in 2010/2011, or to 2009/2010 teams as well (e.g. Dube/Davison; Dube returning with Wolfe)?

Ziggy
07-28-2011, 07:10 AM
Base on the 'split team" rule, Denney/Coughlin (for pairs)and Chock/Bates (for ice dance) would be on the top list of substitute teams?? Will they get two assignments if there is two vacancy or will have to go to next on the list first before getting the second assignment?

They surely won't get two but one and they will be back on the list for the second one.

There's a lot of Top 24 teams with only one assignment.


Does the "split team" rule apply only to skaters who were active in 2010/2011, or to 2009/2010 teams as well (e.g. Dube/Davison; Dube returning with Wolfe)?

Read Sedge's post again:


In the skater/couple selection process, for Pairs and Ice Dance, who were placed amongst the ranks as
mentioned above in the year 2009/2010 or 2010/2011 and have reached the Grand Prix minimum score in
the period as required, but have split, will be considered in the alternate list with the new partner

kwanfan1818
07-28-2011, 08:43 AM
Does the "split team" rule apply only to skaters who were active in 2010/2011, or to 2009/2010 teams as well (e.g. Dube/Davison; Dube returning with Wolfe)?



Read Sedge's post again:

The problem is that there are seeming contradictions in the ISU wording under 7.6:

bullet point, second in the hierarchy, does not mention when the old couple needed to place in the top 12:


Split couples who were previously in the top 12 of a World Championship would be next on the list taking the points of the previous partner. This them in second top position on the alternate listing.

Then the first paragraph after the bullet points states:


In the skater/couple selection process, for Pairs and Ice Dance, who were placed amongst the ranks as mentioned above in the year 2009/2010 or /2011 and have reached the Grand Prix minimum score in the period as required, but have split, will be considered in the alternate list with the new partner, if proof is given that they intend to continue the competitive career. In this case, the minimum score is not required for the new couple.

This seems to specify that if a member of a team that competed in the last two seasons and reached the minimum score with his or her former partner teams up with a new partner, they go to the second tier on the alternate list (after "come-back" skaters), and they don't need to achieve a minimum score with the new partner before GP.

But then the next paragraph only talks about the previous season, not the two previous seasons:


Couples, placed amongst the ranks 1 to 12 of the previous season, but have split and continue their competitive skating with a new partner, will be positioned in second priority of the alternate list (directly following the come back skaters) and a minimum score of the new “skating combination” is not required.

So exactly what season(s) do they mean?

On another topic, all of the skaters who could have been "comeback skaters" -- Zhang/Zhang (P21), Lepisto (L23), and Lysacek (M18) are top 24 in the WR, which guarantees them one spot. Each was given two, but then, other skaters/teams outside the top 12 were given two as well, after the guaranteed spots were assigned. It wouldn't make sense for them to waste their one-time "come-back" card now.

Plushenko was added back to the WR list after his reinstatement, but he's in 33rd. According to the headers, only ISU World Championships and Olympic Winter Games count, but that must be a typo, since the totals do include Euros and 4C's, but only one ISU championship score or Olympics score (ex: Abbott's 680 championship points in 2010/11 for his 4C's bronze).