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euterpe
07-26-2011, 06:50 PM
How would Khokhlova/Andreev fit in? Would she get the advantage of a top 12 returnee (even though she competed last season with her new partner) and be placed at the top of the subs list? They didn't compete at any ISU Championships or GP events last year, and didn't win any of their International B events, so couldn't get on the substitute list any other way. Yes, they could get a host pick, but CoR is the last event.

Vagabond
07-26-2011, 06:56 PM
I am not mixing things up, I just expected all the scores earned during the B-Internationals to be counted for the alternate list purposes.

But only the winners will be taken into consideration. :(

But the skaters who qualify this way wouldn't have been able to do so at all under the previous system because they didn't compete at the previous year's Worlds and didn't have a Season's Best in the Top 75. This rule change actually helps skaters who are rapidly improving or coming back from injuries.

Sedge
07-26-2011, 07:05 PM
“Skaters/couples, placed in the top 75 Season’s best (season 2010/11) are placed on the alternate list.
However those who need to score the minimum score as listed above can do so in the following International
Competitions only:
• Nebelhorn-Trophy 2011,
• Ondrej Nepela Trophy 2011,
• Finlandia Trophy 2011,
• Cup of Nice 2011,
• Ice Challenge in Graz 2011
• NRW Ice Dance Trophy 2011




Skaters/couples, who place first in the following international competitions
• Nebelhorn Trophy 2011 – Oberstdorf
• Ondrej Nepela Memorial Trophy 2011 - Bratislava
• Finlandia Trophy 2011 – Vantaa
• Cup of Nice 2011 – Nice
• Ice Challenge 2011 – Graz
• NRW Ice Dance Trophy 2011 – Dortmund
and can prove to have skated the minimum total score as mentioned in paragraph 2.3, will be added to the alternate list, bottom ranked according to their scores.


Am I right about this.......

First point says...if you have not reached minimum score you can achieve it at these competitions..but not be on the entry or alternate list ( works only for home country replacements, I guess)

Second point says.....if you win the competition you can join the alternate list ..placed where your score fits among the top 75 of last year...(no preferential treatment)....and not likely to access a replacement spot.

Thanks

kwanfan1818
07-26-2011, 07:29 PM
Am I right about this.......

First point says...if you have not reached minimum score you can achieve it at these competitions..but not be on the entry or alternate list ( works only for home country replacements, I guess)
Not according to the way the "Invited Skaters" text is written. For the initial selections, all but the top 75 and come-back skaters have had to reach the minimum score during the qualification period (last season) and be top 75, including the host picks. (ETA: It's and/or for the "host picks": top 75 and/or minimum score). The top 75 who haven't reached the minimum score can qualify under one of the six listed competitions, and host replacement skaters (from their own country) "in case of withdrawal" don't have to meet the minimum score requirements.

There are no explicit rules for the "TBD" host picks.


Second point says.....if you win the competition you can join the alternate list ..placed where your score fits among the top 75 of last year...(no preferential treatment)....and not likely to access a replacement spot.

Thanks
If a skater/teams win the listed senior B competition and don't qualify under any of the other criteria, he/she/team goes to the bottom of the alternates list.

There's nothing I can see that takes the score from a senior B into consideration, except to qualify for the minimum score. Senior B's are not considered in the SB, except for the Olympic qualifier every four years. A senior B can be held with three international judges, and not subject to the same judging selection criteria as GP's and championships, and even if they maintain the fiction that scores are comparable across all competitions, it would be apples and oranges when it comes to judging panels.

Sedge
07-26-2011, 07:44 PM
If a skater/teams win the listed senior B competition and don't qualify under any of the other criteria, he/she/team goes to the bottom of the alternates list.

.

Thanks Kwanfan 1818.

This must mean at the bottom but ranked among the 6 events.
I couldn't merge 'according to their scores' and 'bottom ranked' in my summer brain.

Very unlikely , if they are at the bottom of the top 75 list , that the winner of any of those 6 competitions is going near the GP series.

I wonder if they will limit entry in those 6 Senior B comps to skaters who do not have a GP. it would be fairer that way.

ComeBack skater rule appears to be a Plushenko /Lysacek rule.I guess that Kim, Ando, Rochette may eventually access the rule. Any otherskaters that may exercise that rule that anyone can think of?

haribobo
07-26-2011, 07:54 PM
This means the following pairs (or whatever is left of them) have not met the minimum score:

34 128.04 Stacey KEMP / David KING GBR European Championships 2011 27.01.2011
35 127.48 Felicia ZHANG / Taylor TOTH USA ISU GP Trophee Eric Bompard 2010 27.11.2010
36 126.56 Natalja ZABIJAKO / Sergei KULBACH EST World Championships 2011 28.04.2011
37 125.39 Ekaterina PETAIKINA / Maxim KURDUYKOV RUS ISU JGP Czech Skate 2010 15.10.2010
38 125.34 Adeline CANAC / Yannick BONHEUR FRA European Championships 2011 27.01.2011
39 123.45 Kylie DUARTE / Colin GRAFTON USA ISU JGP J. Curry Memorial 2010 01.10.2010
40 121.13 Tatiana DANILOVA / Andrei NOVOSELOV RUS ISU JGP Cup of Austria 2010 17.09.2010
41 120.72 Lubov BAKIROVA / Mikalai KAMIANCHUK BLR European Championships 2011 27.01.2011
42 118.75 Kristina ASTAKHOVA / Nikita BOCHKOV RUS World Junior Championships 2011 03.03.2011
43 118.06 Katharina GIEROK / Florian JUST GER European Championships 2011 27.01.2011
44 117.69 Kristen TIKEL / Ian BEHARRY CAN ISU JGP Pokal der Blauen Schwerter 2010 08.10.2010
45 117.36 Brynn CARMAN / AJ REISS USA ISU JGP Cup of Austria 2010 17.09.2010
46 117.11 Cassie ANDREWS / Timothy LEDUC USA World Junior Championships 2011 03.03.2011
47 116.44 Carolina GILLESPIE / Luca DEMATTE ITA World Junior Championships 2011 03.03.2011
48 115.15 Kaleigh HOLE / Adam JOHNSON CAN ISU GP Cup of China 2010 06.11.2010
49 114.98 Alexandra VASILIEVA / Yuri SHEVCHUK RUS World Junior Championships 2011 03.03.2011
50 113.30 Anais MORAND / Timothy LEEMANN SUI World Junior Championships 2011 03.03.2011

and so forth on down the list...

kwanfan1818
07-26-2011, 07:56 PM
This year the "come-back" skater clause for seeded skaters applied to Lysacek and Zhang/Zhang. It's a one-time deal -- not so for the alternates list -- and if either doesn't skate this season's GP, that's it for them. (No coming back in the pre-Olympic year, for example.)

It would have applied to Plushenko and Rochette in the original selection -- actually to a very long list of retired skaters -- had they wanted it to, but I don't see any wording that being a "come-back" skater on the alternates list means that the skater/team has used his/her/its one-time opportunity for a guaranteed two. It will apply to Ando next year, assuming she doesn't change her mind and compete at 4C's and/or Worlds.

Also, it applies to injured skaters who are knocked out for the season, and that can happen still, sadly.

kwanfan1818
07-26-2011, 09:11 PM
Actually, the "come-back" skater rule might not have been used in Lysacek's case. He was guaranteed one invite for being top 24 in WR -- he's 18th -- there were spots left over the guaranteed spots were assigned, and he was one of two skaters (Rogozine) who was assigned a second without meeting both criteria.

I need some help in parsing this paragraph (2.2.b):


Skaters/couples with an ISU World Standing placement of 1 – 24 (after season 2010/11) and skaters/couples with seasonal best scores in the top 24 (for season 2010/11) who do not hold an ISU World Standing placement of 1 – 24 will be guaranteed one (1) event if they do not otherwise meet the
criteria listed in paragraphs 2.1 or 2.2 above and the minimum score.

Are they saying here that only the 1-24 SB without 1-24 WR don't need to meet the minimum score requirement? Or that 1-24 WR OR 1-24 SB without 1-24 WR don't have to meet the minimum score requirements?

----

For the Men:

Top 1-12 got two each, except Brezhina, who opted for three.
All but two skaters -- Van der Perren and Preaubert -- who were both 1-24 WR and 1-24 SB got two.
Two skaters in the top 1-24 WR, but not 1-24 SB got two, including one host pick: Lysacek and Rogozine.

Voronov got an initial selection host pick based on his qualifying score at the 2011 Winter Universiade (204.54). He doesn't have a top 75 SB, since he withdrew from his GP event, and he's ranked 45th.

Based on what I can glean from the alternates list rules in the GP announcement, the alternates list looks like:

1. Comeback skaters -- TBD

2. Top 24 SB with one assignment, not including retired skaters (Bradley):

Van der Perren
Mahbanoozadeh (JPN)
Ten (CAN)
Preaubert (CAN)
Liebers (USA)

3. Top 24 WR, but not top 24 SB, with one assignment:

Majorov, 15 (CAN)
Schultheiss, 17 (JPN)

4. All other skaters in the top 75 SB; "Jr." means SB was from a Jr. competition)

Murakami (USA)
Menshov (JPN)
Guan (CHN)
Machida
Wu (CHN)
Tanaka-Jr.
Song (FRA)
Messing-Jr.
Aaron-Jr.
Yan-Jr.
J. Ten
Mura
Tretiakov
Nanri
Hendrickxx
Farris-Jr.
Gorshkov-Jr.
Dmitriev-Jr.
Bessghier
Brown-Jr.
Carriere
Bacchini
Ge
Hochstein
Rakimgaliev
Kihara-Jr.
Berntsson -- retired?
Bush-Jr.
Lucine
Liu-Jr.

5. Winners of six fall qualifiers (Nebelhorn, Ondrej Nepala, Finlandia, Cup of Nice, Ice Challenge 2011, NRW Ice Dance Trophy) - TBD

It explicitly states that the top 24 SB skaters with one are assigned by points, but does not say the same for top 75 SB, nor anything about not giving them a second GP, if they have one.

Skaters in the top 24's get a second before anyone else gets a first. Once they do, the host federation can pick among the top three highest ranked skaters/teams on the alternates list.

kwanfan1818
07-26-2011, 10:18 PM
Ice Dance

Maximum spots:
Active top 1-12 got two each, except Pechalat/Bourzat, Weaver/Poje, who opted for three.
Monko/Khalivin and Riazanova/Tkachenko got two each, replacing Chock/Zuerlein and Crone/Poirier

Host pick:
Yu/Wang (#34 SB)

1. Comeback skaters -- TBD

2. Split teams: list doesn't stipulate which season the 1-12 placement was in, but the next paragraph mentions 2009-10 and 2010-11 seasons, the paragraph after that says "previous season", and I'm not sure what the ISU means.

ETA: Based on last season only: Chock/Bates, and if they find partners, Samuelson, Crone, Poirier.

2. Top 24 SB with one assignment, not including retired skaters and split skaters (Kerr/Kerr, C/Z, C/P) :


Faiella/Scali -- were their names even submitted in time?
Hoffmann/Zavozin (USA, #9 WR)
Paul/Islam (NHK)
Pukash/Guerreiro (CAN, #19 WR)
Mysliveckova/Novak (CAN, #17)
Sinitsina/Zhiganshin-Jr.
Lichtman/Copely (CHN, moved to seniors)
Reed/Reed (RUS, #22)
Tobias/Stagniunas (RUS)

3. Top 24 WR, but not top 24 SB, with one assignment:


Huang/Zheng (FRA, #13)
Gorshkova/Butikov (FRA, #20)
Coomes/Buckland (CHN, #21)
Ralph/Hill (USA, #24)


4. All other skaters in the top 75 SB; "Jr." means SB was from a Jr. competition)

Kriengkrairut/Giulietti-Schmitt (NHK)
Stepanova/Bukin-Jr.
Heekin-Canedy/Shakalov
Zahorski/Miart-Jr.
Kosigina/Moroshkin-Jr.
Visnova/Csolley
Yu/Wang (CHN)
Galyeta/Shumski-Jr.
Antipova/Kudashev-Jr.
Bott/Brown-Jr.
Cannuscio/McManus-Jr.
Orford/Williams-Jr.
Frolenkova/Kasalo
Hurtado/Diaz (NHK)
Guignard-Fabbri
Poulin/Servant-Jr.
Shtork/Rand-Jr.
Bonacosi/Mager-Jr.
Cannuscio/Lorello
Walden/Edwards
Prochazkova/Ceska-Jr.
PapadakisCizeron-Jr.
Alessandrini/Vaturi (NHK)
Olson/Cowan-Jr.
Olivera/Hockley-Jr.
Elsener/Roost
Zenkova/Sinitsin-Jr.
Kubova/Kiselev

Seniors who would have to meet the minimum score in a Fall senior B:

Arnold/Rojek (or get host pick)
Guan/Wang (or get host pick)
Froherg/Giesen
O'Brien/Merriman

As if the Australian federation is going to send O'B/M to Europe to see if they can qualify a minimum score to be 747th on the alternates list...

5. Winner of fall Senior B - TBD

kirkbiggestfan
07-26-2011, 10:27 PM
I wish there had been a rule that said: if you medal in one of the first three GP, and were selected for only 1 GP, then you are on top of the substitute list for the last 3 GP.

euterpe
07-26-2011, 10:36 PM
Several of those teams have retired or split.



This means the following pairs (or whatever is left of them) have not met the minimum score:

34 128.04 Stacey KEMP / David KING GBR European Championships 2011 27.01.2011
35 127.48 Felicia ZHANG / Taylor TOTH USA ISU GP Trophee Eric Bompard 2010 27.11.2010 SPLIT
36 126.56 Natalja ZABIJAKO / Sergei KULBACH EST World Championships 2011 28.04.2011
37 125.39 Ekaterina PETAIKINA / Maxim KURDUYKOV RUS ISU JGP Czech Skate 2010 15.10.2010
38 125.34 Adeline CANAC / Yannick BONHEUR FRA European Championships 2011 27.01.2011 reportedly SPLIT
39 ** 123.45 Kylie DUARTE / Colin GRAFTON USA ISU JGP J. Curry Memorial 2010 01.10.2010 Still Junior eligible; will probably opt for JGP again
40 121.13 Tatiana DANILOVA / Andrei NOVOSELOV RUS ISU JGP Cup of Austria 2010 17.09.2010
41 120.72 Lubov BAKIROVA / Mikalai KAMIANCHUK BLR European Championships 2011 27.01.2011
42 118.75 Kristina ASTAKHOVA / Nikita BOCHKOV RUS World Junior Championships 2011 03.03.2011
43 118.06 Katharina GIEROK / Florian JUST GER European Championships 2011 27.01.2011
44 117.69 Kristen TIKEL / Ian BEHARRY CAN ISU JGP Pokal der Blauen Schwerter 2010 08.10.2010 SPLIT
45 117.36 Brynn CARMAN / AJ REISS USA ISU JGP Cup of Austria 2010 17.09.2010 SPLIT
46 117.11 Cassie ANDREWS / Timothy LEDUC USA World Junior Championships 2011 03.03.2011
47 116.44 Carolina GILLESPIE / Luca DEMATTE ITA World Junior Championships 2011 03.03.2011
48 115.15 Kaleigh HOLE / Adam JOHNSON CAN ISU GP Cup of China 2010 06.11.2010 SPLIT
49 114.98 Alexandra VASILIEVA / Yuri SHEVCHUK RUS World Junior Championships 2011 03.03.2011
50 113.30 Anais MORAND / Timothy LEEMANN SUI World Junior Championships 2011 03.03.2011

kwanfan1818
07-26-2011, 11:45 PM
Pairs:

Maximum spots:
Active top 1-12 got two each, except Savchenko/Szolkovy and Kavaguti/Smirnov, who opted for three.
Zhang/Zhang
Illiushechkina/Maisuradze (top 24 SB and top 24 WR)

There was no replacement for Yankowskas/Coughlin in the seeds, due to a change in the rules this year.

Again, here it isn't clear whether Zhang/Zhang qualified for their two spots under the "come-back" skater clause, or by placing having a top 24 WR (21) and not having to have a minimum score under 2.2.b

Vise/Baldwin qualified as a host pick by scoring 141.37 at Ice Challenge 2010 in Graz. Canac/Bonheur qualified by placing 38th on the SB list, but, according to this post (http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3234450&postcount=100), they have split.

1. Come-back skaters -- TBD

2. Split pairs

Based on last season, at least Denney/Coughlin, and Yankowskas, if she finds a partner.

3. 2. Top 24 SB with one assignment, not including retired/split skaters (Mylene/Brodeur, Della Monica/Kokon, Barrett, Simpson/Miller):


Sui/Han (CAN)
Lawrence/Swiegers (CAN)
Gerboldt/Enbert (RUS)
Castelli/Shnapir (NHK)
Stolbova/Klimov (FRA)
Zhang/Wang (CHN, #18 WR)
Marley/Brubaker (USA)


3. Top 24 WR, but not top 24 SB, with one assignment:


Kadlecova/Bidar (CHN, #24 WR)
Dong/Wu (FRA, #16 WR)

Kemp/King theoretically should have one based on their WR of 13, but 2.2.b is murky. (They did not qualify a minimum score.) Did the GBR federation not submit their names to the ISU?

4. All other skaters in the top 75 SB; "Jr." means SB was from a Jr. competition)

Yu/Jin (CAN)
Novik/Kuznetsov
Cain/Reagan (RUS)
Steele/Schultz (CHN)
Purich/Schultz (NHK)
Jones/Gaskell (RUS)
Silaeva/Minchuk-Jr.

Must qualify a minimum score at one of the fall senior B's:


Kemp/King (maybe not, since they are #13 in the WR list)
Zhang/Toth
Zabijako/Kulbach
Petaikina/Kuruykov-Jr.

and every other intact pair skating seniors to the bottom of the list: there were only 67 pairs on the SB list.

5. Winners of Fall senor B's: TBD.

Sylvia
07-26-2011, 11:56 PM
Zhang/Toth (USA) are no more in pairs. It's now Zhang/Bartholomay.

Ditto Heekin/Shakalov (UKR) in dance -- it's now Heekin-Canedy/Dun, according to: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3232524&postcount=89

Thanks for taking the time to compile these GP alternate lists, kwanfan1818!

kwanfan1818
07-27-2011, 12:24 AM
Ladies:

Maximum Spots:


Active top 1-12 received two each, except for Kostner and Leonova, who opted for three. Seeds Ando and Kim were not replaced.
Lepisto, either as a come-back skater or on the basis of her top 24 WR.
All active senior skaters who were both 1-24 WR and 1-24 SB got two.
Two skaters in the top 1-24 WR, but not 1-24 SB got two.
World Junior/JGPF medalists Tuktamisheva and Adelina Sotnikova got two.
Wagner, who in the top 24 SB, but not in the top 24 WR, got two.


Host picks who qualified with a top 75 SB for one spot: Geng, Zhang Kexin, C. Zhang, Silete.

The minimum score and/or top 75 requirements for an initial host pick might have been why Zhang was selected for Skate America. Amanda Dobbs and Alexe Gilles are the only non-maxed out seniors from last year's top 75 SB. The rest were all juniors: Siraj, Lam, Hicks, Baga, Wang, Jiang, Cesario. I'm not sure who else may have qualified a minimum score at a senior B; last season's page for international assignments has been replaced by this season's version.

1 . Comeback skaters -- TBD

2. Top 24 SB with one assignment, not including retired skaters (Meier):

None: they all got two

3. Top 24 WR, but not top 24 SB, with one assignment:


Victoria Helgesson (FRA, #14 WR)
Joshi Helgesson (USA, #18 WR)

4. All other active skaters in the top 75 SB; "Jr." means SB was from a Jr. competition)


Shoji-Jr.
Biryukova (RUS)
Shelepen-Jr.
Samson
Hicks-Jr.
Vannut
Meite (NHK)
Li-Jr.
HOba-Jr.
Kwak
Lafuente
Geng (CHN)
Shveleva-Jr.
Baga-Jr.
Suguri
Turkkila
Agafonova-Jr.
Nishino-Jr.
Fujisawa-Jr.
Gong
Zhang Kexin (CHN)
Silete (FRA)
Oba-Jr.
C. Zhang (USA)
Linammae
C. Lee
Wang-Jr.
Dobbs
McCorkell
Glebova
Jiang-Jr.
Kokubun-Jr.
Simancikova-Jr.
Gilles
Glescic-Jr.
Zhang-Jr.
Movchan
Oshikawa-Jr.
Lee Ho Jung-Jr.
Cesario-Jr.
Olsson-Jr.
Buehler
Marrocco
Goto-Jr.
Johnson
Ventard-Jr.
Najarro-Jr.
Didier
Gilleron-Gorry-Jr.

kwanfan1818
07-27-2011, 12:56 AM
Zhang/Toth (USA) are no more in pairs. It's now Zhang/Bartholomay.

Ditto Heekin/Shakalov (UKR) in dance -- it's now Heekin-Canedy/Dun, according to: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3232524&postcount=89


I will never get this straight. I thought it was Stagiunas who was losing his American partner...