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MacMadame
07-02-2011, 07:02 AM
Yes, I have.
Then you are aware that this is the organization that had judges caught on videotape cheating and only gave them a slap on the wrist.


This is a judged sport. Federations usually prefer to keep cordial relationships and especially not to start feuds.
Exactly. Plus, for most of these skaters, it's a moot point. They are now of age. So the only thing pushing this buys skating is having to revise all the records of any competition they were in when they were age ineligible.

That's going to be a godawful mess. Given that and given how figure skating is (the ultimate "don't rock the boat" sport), the only way a federation would push it would be to get specific skaters off the JGP or SGP circuit so that their skaters would be able to get on. Any federation sending a lot of skaters already or who doesn't have skaters waiting in the wings won't benefit.


It is a lost cause anyway.
Plus that.


IMO it is best for the ISU to keep track of national novice and pre-novice competition results of the major countries. Having a skater's competition history from age 7-8 may be the only way to find out about fraud.
Interesting idea.


It's called politics. If they assign them to COR, then they will be seen as having a GP and will be removed from the substitute list.
By waiting until they are assigned a GP in their own right elsewhere, the Russian Fed can then assign them COR and hey presto, they have 2 GP's.
Actually, that's called strategy. Politics when you pick team X instead of team Y because team X gave you a Mercedes. ;)


If we're talking about results and achievements, it really isn't.
Result and achievements are not a straightforward indicator of talent. You can't use the terms interchangeably and you used the word 'talent' which is a subjective term and therefore debatable by definition.

Ziggy
07-02-2011, 01:31 PM
I meant maybe fans shouldn't care as much where they are skating, not the Chinese Federation. There is a lot of "S/H should just move up from juniors and give other skaters a chance to win medals" much as there was "P/T and Z/Z should just retire and let other skaters like S/H be China's #1.

And both of those sentiments are damn right.

Doing both Junior and Senior GP shouldn't be allowed in the first place.

feraina
07-02-2011, 06:05 PM
I don't understand why everyone's getting upset about S/H instead of feeling sympathetic. :rolleyes: They and their coach would of course prefer being given 2 GP's and not having to compete in JGP's -- they won GPF bronze already for crying out loud! But they do not have the political backing of the Chinese federation, for which Yao Bin is the head of the entire figure skating program, and Yao is coaching not only P/T & Z/Z, who both have two GP's, but also D/W and Z/W, who have both had very mediocre results so far and don't look like they will get anywhere close to international podiums, but keep on getting politicked into GP assignments every year. At least neither of those last two got two assignments over S/H, that would have really been upsetting! :mad:

S/H are coached by Luan Bo, Yao's former partner, whom he has belittled in public multiple times for their bad results when they competed together. All the young pairs that did well on the JGP last year were Luan's students, including Y/J who won JGPF bronze (and also silver at Chinese National's after S/H). Both pairs got only one GP each. :blah:

At least Chinese judges have seemed fair so far at Nationals, so I hope Z/W and D/W won't be sent over S/H and Y/J to ISU championships if the latter two pairs really outshine them on the ice. But then again, this is the first year that Luan Bo's students are actually competing with Yao Bin's at the senior international level, so all that apparent fairness may go out the window. :yikes:

Ziggy
07-02-2011, 06:46 PM
Thanks, that's an interesting insight.

I didn't realise there was a conflict between Yao Bin and Luan Bo.

halffull
07-02-2011, 08:08 PM
Doing both Junior and Senior GP shouldn't be allowed in the first place.

agreed

Asli
07-02-2011, 11:17 PM
Doing both Junior and Senior GP shouldn't be allowed in the first place.

Yes, an exception was made for the pairs category at a time when there weren't enough pairs to fill the spots. That is far from being the case now.

oubik
07-13-2011, 12:19 PM
I've always been surprised that the ISU allows repeat champions in Juniors.

Why? Itīs pretty normal in every other sport. For example in Athletics, this weeks Euros under 22 will welcome famous French triple-jumper and World no 1 - Teddy Tamgho + many indoor European medaillists in many disciplines. In Beach Volleyball many World Series participants and even medaillists are taking part in Youth and Junior Champs etc.

oubik
07-13-2011, 12:22 PM
That's just good strategy, if that's how the alternates list will work, i.e., go to the first team with no events. That would undermine the ISU's argument that they want the best competition in any given event, in which case the alternates would be the team with the highest SB that hasn't maxed out with two or three assignments.

But why exclude those with only 1 assingment yet? If they have better score than those with no assingments, they have to be the first on the list.

oubik
07-13-2011, 12:28 PM
Sui may not have been underage at the time. Even if she were, at the moment it is too late to do anything about it. IMO it is best for the ISU to keep track of national novice and pre-novice competition results of the major countries. Having a skater's competition history from age 7-8 may be the only way to find out about fraud.

Well, as far as I know people working around the calculation of results and events organization are following closely all the possible results they can have even from National events and I was once in a competition where one of them reminded the OC to check if one skater have all the right documents (including Clearance Certificate) as he was checking her name skating for another country in some of the very small international event in Europe even in non-ISU category (Novice and below at that time). But still itīs a question of sources and tell me how would you find all the Chinese domestic events results and are the birthdates part of the results? No in Czech Republic (it would be even against the our law to publish them). Also, looking in USA where the competition level is done by skating skills/tests passed and do not through your age it would be really complicated to "protest" anything.

kwanfan1818
07-13-2011, 03:38 PM
Why? Itīs pretty normal in every other sport. For example in Athletics, this weeks Euros under 22 will welcome famous French triple-jumper and World no 1 - Teddy Tamgho + many indoor European medaillists in many disciplines. In Beach Volleyball many World Series participants and even medaillists are taking part in Youth and Junior Champs etc.
In some federation figure skating nationals, once you've won a title, no matter how young you are, you have to go to the next level the next year.


But why exclude those with only 1 assingment yet? If they have better score than those with no assingments, they have to be the first on the list.
They have to meet the criteria that the ISU sets for the alternate lists, and we don't know what that is yet. I was pointing out the contradiction in that scheme. I know that's not the case in other sports, and the ISU has not chosen to go this way.

HisWeirness
07-25-2011, 11:57 AM
ISU Communication 1685
The ISU posted the number of entries (total and direct) for 2011-12 ISU Championships today along with the minimum technical scores required for ISU Championships:

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vcontent/content/transnews/0,10869,4844-128610-19728-18886-314252-3572-4771-layout160-129918-news-item,00.html


Skaters/couples participating in the above-mentioned Championships (except for World Junior Figure Skating Championships) must have reached in an ISU recognized International Competition (as per Article 38, paragraph 7 and Rule 107, paragraphs 1 to 9) during the ongoing season (2011/12) or immediately preceding season (2009/10) [<- this must be a typo, should be 2010-11] the applicable minimum Technical Scores (both for SP/SD/OD and FS/FD) as follows:

Men SP 20.00 points FS 35.00 points

Ladies SP 15.00 points FS 25.00 points

Pairs SP 17.00 points FS 30.00 points

Ice Dance OD/SD17.00 points FD 27.00 points

The minimum Technical Scores can be reached in either the same or in two different International Competitions.

No mention of any GP minimums here...

kwanfan1818
07-25-2011, 05:51 PM
So much for 2/3 of the (TES) highest score from last season. They will need the quali rounds again, based on these minimum scores.

Seeing "2 pairs" for China at Worlds is still a bit of a shock.

julieann
07-25-2011, 06:17 PM
Seeing "2 pairs" for China at Worlds is still a bit of a shock.

I'm confused, wouldn't China have 2 places anyway because P/T got 3rd? Or am I mixing up the rules?

kwanfan1818
07-25-2011, 06:21 PM
China earned two places because P/T finished in 3rd and Zhang/Wang were 13th (3+13=16, which is <= 28).

I'm so used to seeing three pairs for China, and CHN was unlucky to have the Zhangs out for the season and Sui/Han ineligible. It's going to be quite a competition for the two spots this year.

julieann
07-25-2011, 07:25 PM
China earned two places because P/T finished in 3rd and Zhang/Wang were 13th (3+13=16, which is <= 28).

I'm so used to seeing three pairs for China, and CHN was unlucky to have the Zhangs out for the season and Sui/Han ineligible. It's going to be quite a competition for the two spots this year.

Sorry I was confused, I read it like you were suprised they got 2 intead of 1; not 2 instead of 3...sorry :duh: