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julieann
07-01-2011, 12:43 AM
I'd rather see S/H skate. Hasn't this 'age' horse been beaten enough?

misskarne
07-01-2011, 04:12 AM
Okay, I've re-read the entire thread looking for the answer to this, and haven't found it.

This is just a genuinely curious question, I'm not trying to start anything.



I thought the ISU said that in order to be assigned a Grand Prix this season, you had to have qualified with a season's best score from last season.

Plushenko didn't compete last season and was not assigned any GPs, although if the CoR TBD isn't for him I'll eat my hat.

Lysacek didn't compete last season but was given TWO GPs.


How does that work!?!!?!?!!? :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

mag
07-01-2011, 04:21 AM
.... I'll skate naked at a local club competition.

I just hope you don't fall ....;)

Seriously, this whole age thing is a nonstarter for all the reasons MacMadame has listed. There is simply no way to prove anything if the Chinese government is willing to certify the birth certificates. IMHO the whole thing would be a complete waste of time and money. It may not be fair, but life is often unfair.

Ziggy
07-01-2011, 04:46 AM
Go back and read the thread. Several people here on FSU saved copies and contacted the ISU.

I'm sorry but are you really incapable of understanding that a spreadsheet has absolutely no weight in front of court of law when weighed against actual legal, certified documents...


Lysacek didn't compete last season but was given TWO GPs.

Top skaters get one opportunity to request 2GP spots when returning after one or more seasons of retirement/injury/etc.

Lysacek is using his.

kwanfan1818
07-01-2011, 05:21 AM
I thought the ISU said that in order to be assigned a Grand Prix this season, you had to have qualified with a season's best score from last season.
To be guaranteed spots, aside from host picks, a skater had to place 1-12 at Worlds last year or come back under the comeback skater clause. We don't know exactly what the criteria is for the rest of the picks, because the ISU hasn't published their GP document yet, but it's clear from the Zhangs' and Lysacek's assignments that last season's comeback skater clause was applied this year.

According to a quote by Peter Krick, the alternates list will be created from the SB's from last season and this season, not season's World Rankings, as was originally reported. If Plushenko competes in a Senior B, he would qualify for the alternates list aside from RUS GP.



Plushenko didn't compete last season and was not assigned any GPs, although if the CoR TBD isn't for him I'll eat my hat.


He didn't apply under the same comeback rule that Lysacek did, or he would have been guaranteed two spots. The comeback clause is a one-time-only deal, and perhaps Plushenko didn't feel ready, given that his reinstatement happened recently, or didn't want to use it up, in case he needed it closer to Sochi. It's also possible it was a timing issue between the reinstatement and the deadline for submitting names for selection, although that wasn't supposed to be an issue.

Vagabond
07-01-2011, 05:47 AM
I'm sorry but are you really incapable of understanding that a spreadsheet has absolutely no weight in front of court of law when weighed against actual legal, certified documents...

You are assuming that the supposed birth certificates (or at least Sui Wenjiang's, which was reportedly destroyed by a water leak) are going to be treated as admissible evidence. If they are treated as admissible, then, yes, the spreadsheet doesn't count for anything. But it isn't at all clear that they will be (because of problems with record-keeping discussed at length in the original thread).

If the Chinese Federation can't get the birth certificates treated as admissible evidence, then the ISU will probably have a choice between the spreadsheet (which contains several damaging statements by Chinese sports authorities) and self-serving statements by the skaters or perhaps the skaters' parents.

Of course, even then, the ISU can choose to believe the skaters. But it isn't a certainty that it will.

MacMadame
07-01-2011, 06:49 AM
I just hope you don't fall ....;)
Well to be fair, they won't let me skate naked. But I'm willing to do something else embarrassing in it's place.



Of course, even then, the ISU can choose to believe the skaters. But it isn't a certainty that it will.

:rofl: Have you been following the ISU at all.

Vagabond
07-01-2011, 07:03 AM
:rofl: Have you been following the ISU at all.

Yes, I have.

Don't you think that, if the ISU does nothing, other federations will create a stink? I'm thinking particularly of the Japanese and Russian Federations in particular, since their pairs would have won the last two Junior Pairs titles, but for Sui & Han. And, AFAIK, those two Federations have more influence in the ISU than their Chinese counterpart does.

Or can you explain how this is not a zero-sum game, and it is in other federations' interest to have one set of rules for China and another for everyone else? (That much I haven't seen discussed on FSU.

misskarne
07-01-2011, 07:26 AM
To be guaranteed spots, aside from host picks, a skater had to place 1-12 at Worlds last year or come back under the comeback skater clause. We don't know exactly what the criteria is for the rest of the picks, because the ISU hasn't published their GP document yet, but it's clear from the Zhangs' and Lysacek's assignments that last season's comeback skater clause was applied this year.

According to a quote by Peter Krick, the alternates list will be created from the SB's from last season and this season, not season's World Rankings, as was originally reported. If Plushenko competes in a Senior B, he would qualify for the alternates list aside from RUS GP.



He didn't apply under the same comeback rule that Lysacek did, or he would have been guaranteed two spots. The comeback clause is a one-time-only deal, and perhaps Plushenko didn't feel ready, given that his reinstatement happened recently, or didn't want to use it up, in case he needed it closer to Sochi. It's also possible it was a timing issue between the reinstatement and the deadline for submitting names for selection, although that wasn't supposed to be an issue.


Thanks, kwanfan1818!

I'm still confused, but at least I have some explanations to try and wrap my head around :lol:

The ISU can't do anything simply, can they?

Asli
07-01-2011, 08:38 AM
Don't you think that, if the ISU does nothing, other federations will create a stink? I'm thinking particularly of the Japanese and Russian Federations in particular, since their pairs would have won the last two Junior Pairs titles, but for Sui & Han. And, AFAIK, those two Federations have more influence in the ISU than their Chinese counterpart does.

This is a judged sport. Federations usually prefer to keep cordial relationships and especially not to start feuds.

It is a lost cause anyway. Even if the Chinese federation are unable to produce a birth certificate - which I highly doubt - they can produce school records, records of official aids that her parents received for her, her paediatrician's reports and a whole lot of other documents that have ten times more value than a number on a spreadsheet.

Sui may not have been underage at the time. Even if she were, at the moment it is too late to do anything about it. IMO it is best for the ISU to keep track of national novice and pre-novice competition results of the major countries. Having a skater's competition history from age 7-8 may be the only way to find out about fraud.

Ziggy
07-01-2011, 10:54 AM
Sui may not have been underage at the time. Even if she were, at the moment it is too late to do anything about it. IMO it is best for the ISU to keep track of national novice and pre-novice competition results of the major countries. Having a skater's competition history from age 7-8 may be the only way to find out about fraud.

Fantastic idea, Asli!

I think you should become the next ISU president. :cool:

Rafter
07-01-2011, 05:28 PM
Why did Khoklova & Andreev not receive the third CoR spot?

millipied
07-01-2011, 05:30 PM
Why did Khoklova & Andreev not receive the third CoR spot?

They are waiting. Look for info in "From Russia with Love" thread.

kwanfan1818
07-01-2011, 05:51 PM
The ISU can't do anything simply, can they?
No, which is why a few really smart FSUers read the endless ISU documentation and :COP: for all of us, so that we can :mitchell:, :skandal, :angryfire, :wall:, :soapbox:, and :argue: for thousands and thousands of posts.

Rafter
07-01-2011, 06:05 PM
They are waiting. Look for info in "From Russia with Love" thread.

Waiting for what? Why didn't the Russian Fed just outright assign them to CoR?