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Triple Butz
10-09-2011, 08:24 PM
There are two US skaters that I think just were skating in the wrong generation: Matt Savoie and Ryan Jahnke. Impeccable skills, choreography for days, and mostly landed their jumps. It was too early in COP for them to get the scores, but when Chan falls three or four times and get first place scores, it was on the backs of skaters like these two that it became possible.
I was never a Savoie uber, but I think it was 1999 Nationals when he was totally robbed of a Worlds spot when Timmy Goebel imploded. All the talk was of Timmy and he just bombed, and had NO presentation to speak of to fall back on. People 'in the know' at the time told me that Savoie had a no-politik coach and he was always going to be bridesmaid or less. It seemed apparent. I could not think of ONE reason the judges at 1999 Nationals could have placed Goebel ahead of Savoie, except for the hope that he'd land his quad/s at a later date. I'd have to look at the programs again, but I believe Savoie did two 3/3s, and stupidly repeated a second lutz after two axels and toes. But STILL, he was always a better skater than Timmy Goebel.
I can only sit here satisfied that Savoie got his Olympic moment, and Jahnke did have his moment at Worlds. I followed Jahnke in Mids for like a decade, and just watching him move was a delight. His skating was surreal.
I might even post them from Ytube after I go watch them.

Yeah, the "Quad Craze" in the late 90's until CoP was really unfortunate for some skaters. It's unbelievable to me that skaters like Jahnke and Savoie were no more than an afterthought simply because they didn't put in a 4-revolution jump. How interesting that a skater like Lysacek could end up with a World and an Olympic title without a quad when these two (vastly superior skaters, IMO) never managed a big win of any kind. Different times, different trends I guess :blah:

Vagabond
10-09-2011, 08:47 PM
I would agree that Goebel and Weiss were given preferential treatment over Weiss because they could do the quad. (Well, Goebel could in his prime. Weiss didn't landed one that often without two-footing it.)

However, if I remember correctly, neither Lysacek nor Weir even attempted the quadruple toe loop in competition until after Savoie retired.

aftershocks
10-09-2011, 10:03 PM
Interesting discussion which should probably be in Trash Can under U.S. Men circa 2004-2006.


Oh dear. What have I started ??
:argue:
:slinkaway

No worries, aemeraldrainc – you asked a question, and offered a lament re Matt. These debates are definitely not new ... However, I do understand your instinct to :slinkaway and Primorskaya's suggestion to :scream: I agree with your take on Matt and "the scheme of things...[affecting] outcomes."


Lysacek got the 3rd spot for the Worlds. Are you implying that he got the whole support of US federation at the Worlds and that is why he won the bronze medal and not Weir or Goebel, LOL?

And however much a fan likes RyanB´s skating does not mean that the international judges should appreciate it, too. Besides, as he was the US champion, why did not US fed´s support give him the bronze medal if the fed's support will get you medals, LOL? Oh, yeah, in his case the international judges were just "unkind" :lol::lol::lol::lol:

Where do I begin? ;) Weir clearly should have medaled at ’04 Worlds (he skated better than anyone else), but third went to the home country’s Lindemann who capitalized on his opportunity in the limelight, and fourth went to a sloppy, but interesting Lambiel. In ’05, Weir arguably should have placed in 2nd or 3rd overall. He made a mistake in the sp, but skated well enough in lp compared to mistakes those placed ahead of him made, not to mention having two of the most memorable, polished and well-choreographed programs of that season. His TEB skate that season is a classic. Worlds judges were perhaps fairly “unkind” in 2011, but mostly they just weren’t buying U.S. fed sending two skaters new to senior international scene (no matter how well they skated), and a veteran who had very little Worlds experience, rep, or polished skating skills.

So what Lysacek copped bronze at ’05 Worlds. Who is to say what might have happened for Matt at 2005 Worlds if he’d been sent. The U.S. had an embarrassment of riches with the men, but as usual flutzed around with the scoring, basing it not only on the performances but on popularity, politics, rep, and who they preferred to push as the next up-and-comer (and fairly probably felt Matt had not shown enough consistency internationally, but OTOH being fully supportive to all your skaters might do wonders for their overall confidence). Lysacek stumbling/ lucking into the bronze at Worlds ’05 was icing on an under-baked cake. Worlds 2006 occurred in an Olympic year and Plush was not there, Weir was shell-shocked, EL had the chance to cement the comeback lp outing he’d had at the Olympics. EL gets all the credit in the world for working hard, as he has been quoted as saying, in order “to win” against skaters who may have more overall talent than him.


Random thoughts.
Savoie :swoon: Great skater, ahead of his time.
Amodio's new LP. What on Earth IS that:confused: Where is Amodio's skating skills and transitions that he had at 19. To me, so far, this program is unwatchable.
Off topic, and nothing detrimental to Johnny- but let's not credit him with Buttle's and Lambiel's success. They all are very much contemporaries, and both Buttle and Lambiel got their breaks before Johnny did.

Any statement re the likelihood of Weir having any kind of influence on his contemporaries results in an overstatement against that notion. Who exactly said Weir should be “credited” with Buttle’s and Lambiel’s “success.” Of course, they should each be “credited” with their own success. Factually, Buttle and Lambiel came on the senior international scene at Worlds in 2002 (2 years before Weir). Buttle placed 8th, 15th, missed a year, then jumped to 2nd in 2005 with two falls. He later landed in 6th twice, then worked on his 3-axel (possibly using Weir’s textbook perfect 3-axel as a model) and became World champion in 2008. His sp in competition with Weir at ’08 Worlds arguably could have had either in first place – they were both excellent, but Buttle was definitely more popular with the judges and had a strong supportive fed behind him. Lambiel at senior Worlds placed 18th, 10th, and then came in 4th in ’04 just ahead of a cleaner Weir in Weir’s first trip to Worlds. The following year, Lambiel was World champion, Buttle was second, Weir skated well with an injury (and had arguably two of the most compelling and GP-winning programs that season), but for some reason placed out of the medals again at Worlds just behind his still juniorish-looking teammate.


...

Judge's Scores for the Men's Short Program at 2005 U.S. Nationals (http://www.usfsa.org/event_related_details.asp?ri=content/events/200405/uschamps/seniormen-short.htm)

Timothy Goebel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0EjEssavls) (first place)
Johnny Weir (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlBrJsGXkGc) (second place)
Evan Lysacek (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAWdSzNdiZE&feature=related) (third place)
Matthew Savoie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFAsNpBJbk0) (fourth place)
...

It would be a close decision between the first four, but judging by the videos, Savoie could probably rightly have been placed first in this program. His jumps were harder and better executed, and his transitions were much better too. The fact that only two judges placed him higher than fourth and that two placed him fifth ... speaks volumes.
...

Thanks for the breakdown Vagabond. I would have had Matt (first); Weir (second or third); Goebel (second or third); and Lysacek (fourth) after the sp. After the lp: Weir (first); Matt (second); Goebel (third); Lysacek (fourth). Who coulda foresaw the placements at 2006 Olympics?? IMHO, Weir should have been in first at ’06 Olympics after his The Swan sp skate – and had he arrived on time for lp, perhaps with the program he’d trained and skated all season rather than a quickly revamped Otonal, he might well have landed on the podium. Fortunately, Savoie was included on the team in 2006 (did the judges feel any shame for leaving him off the team in 4th at 2005 Nats?) To me, that 2005 men’s competition is one of the most unheralded controversies in U.S. men’s fs – especially taking into account how well Matt skated in both programs! In the lp he used unusual music for him and delivered another strong and accomplished skate (difficult jump entries, gorgeous choreo, and exquisite musical interpretation).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFBL9Z-SZIc

So what that he doubled two intended triples – he landed 6 triples (two in combination) with 2 triple axels (5 doubles, 2 in combination with triples) along with extraordinary difficulty and superb skating throughout. It should have been more than enough for Matt to have made the team. Contrast both of Savoie’s great skates with Lysacek’s decent but somewhat awkward and juniorish sp skate, and the sloppy mistakes that Lysacek made in his charming (but again fairly unpolished) Singin’ in the Rain program, and the scoring at that Nats is very clearly a wuzrobbed for Matt. Altho’ he seemed discouraged by his marks at 2005 Nats, it didn’t stop Matt from keeping his goal in mind and coming back determined and prepared the following year (he deferred his acceptance at Cornell Law School in order to work toward making the Olympic team). Matt definitely achieved his goals and gave skating fans lasting beauty along the way. Matt was 7th at the Olympics and 11th at 2006 Worlds. Sure, he rarely fared well with the judges and didn't have a great deal of consistent int’l experience, but he reached his goal of skating at the Olympics, and shined there in the lp. Is Matt necessarily even thinking about fs these days? He appears to be moving forward quite fantastically with his life.

http://www.choate.com/people.php?PeopleID=354

Triple Butz
10-09-2011, 10:05 PM
I would agree that Goebel and Weiss were given preferential treatment over Weiss because they could do the quad. (Well, Goebel could in his prime. Weiss didn't landed one that often without two-footing it.)

However, if I remember correctly, neither Lysacek nor Weir even attempted the quadruple toe loop in competition until after Savoie retired.

Right, like I said, I was talking about late 90's until CoP which is before Lysacek started making the World team and by that time Matt had already been around for several years and his jumps were becoming less consistent.

Vagabond
10-09-2011, 10:38 PM
Entire post

I've been juggling the placements of the SP in my mind over the past few hours. I think Savoie wuzrobbed, but I can see placing Goebel, Weir, and Lysacek right behind him in any order. (Weir had a couple of awkward landings and Goebel doubled his toe loop and had his usual slouching shoulders on his sit spins, but the rest was just about good enough to forgive them.)

As for the Free Skate, I've looked for videos of Goebel (second) and Lysacek (third) but couldn't find them. Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ttNzEwPMLM) is a link to Weir's FS -- one of his best free skates ever.

And here (http://www.usfsa.org/event_related_details.asp?ri=content/events/200405/uschamps/seniormen-free.htm) is a link to the judges' scores for the Men's Free Skate. Obviously, Savoie didn't get much credit for the tremendous difficulty of his jump entrances.

Question: Why do people keep posting things about the 2011 Japan Open in this thread? :confused:

aftershocks
10-09-2011, 10:42 PM
As for Amodio at Japan Open: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVbHq6e93nU

RyanB did a much better job in 2007: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVbHq6e93nU


Sorry to mention anything to do with Chan again, but I came across this on youtube, and I wasn't even looking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gN_aMxpD85U

I never saw this at the time. Funny how CBC broadcasters were casting Worlds that year as being between Joubert and Chan mostly, with Lysacek an afterthought. Also hilarious that the U.S. press is credited with making a big deal out of the sparks/ comments that flew between Joubert and Chan. I found Joubert more endearing in this presser than Patrick. Not very endearing of me, but I've become more and more turned off re Patrick chiefly b/c true or not, he comes off as very full of himself, with the big bad powerful Canadian fed, journalists and public solidly behind him. All of that is fine, but on top of it, he has to be painted as unbeatable too. He has mad skills, sure, but he's not the second coming.

aemeraldrainc
10-10-2011, 12:21 AM
Question: Why do people keep posting things about the 2011 Japan Open in this thread? :confused:

:rofl: love it! :cool:

aemeraldrainc
10-10-2011, 01:48 AM
Interesting discussion which should probably be in Trash Can under U.S. Men circa 2004-2006.

No worries, aemeraldrainc – you asked a question, and offered a lament re Matt. These debates are definitely not new ... However, I do understand your instinct to :slinkaway and Primorskaya's suggestion to :scream: I agree with your take on Matt and "the scheme of things...[affecting] outcomes."
..................
Matt definitely achieved his goals and gave skating fans lasting beauty along the way[/B]. Matt was 7th at the Olympics and 11th at 2006 Worlds. Sure, he rarely fared well with the judges and didn't have a great deal of consistent int’l experience, but he reached his goal of skating at the Olympics, and shined there in the lp. Is Matt necessarily even thinking about fs these days? He appears to be moving forward quite fantastically with his life.

http://www.choate.com/people.php?PeopleID=354

Thanks. I feel better now. :)

This would definitely look nicer in its own thread. Maybe a mod can transfer and title? Or not.
Whatever.

I loved getting everyone's perspective on this. It's something that always bugged me. And, of course, people here are so much more knowledgeable, articulate and can explain things so much better than I ever will. Thanks for all the youtube links as well. I didn't follow figure skating for some years there and am barely getting back into the swing of things. You guys rock!
:respec:

I agree with mostly everything posted here and I'm happy to see that MS has definitely moved on and appears to be happy doing what he wants to do. Nice profile there. :kickass:
I just hope he knows how much we loved and appreciated him and how much we feel he deserved. Bridge under the water, I know, but it would still be nice for him to know and for me to know that he knows. :lol:
Maybe I should write a letter? :D

Either way, I'm sure he's aware on some level.

Sylvia
10-11-2011, 03:40 PM
Sorry to interrupt this discussion by posting this link to Japan Open backstage photos taken by Cathy Reed :): http://web.icenetwork.com/gen/photogallery/year_2011/month_10/day_01/cf25415434.html

paskatefan
10-12-2011, 10:15 AM
^ Nice!!!! :encore: Thanks!

jettasian
10-21-2011, 03:55 AM
Seriously. After all, he didn't fall, and that's the marker here, right? What does it matter if he had no choreography, poor interpretation, lesser skating skills, fewer clean triples and lesser footwork and spins. He didn't fall.

If you believe that Chan should be ahead of Amodio, than yes, a three fall skate can and should beat a no-fall skate. It just depends on the circumstances. Using bek's suggestion that each fall remove 10% of the total score would put Chan approximately 25 points behind Amodio, fwiw.

Well said! I'm just to sick of reading all those bitching and whinning about "Chan shouldn't have won because he fell 3 times blah blah blah" Well, someone asked a good question, where are those whiners? I really want to see them pick and justify their choice.

No matter what Chan did, some haters will find any lame crap to bash about him. Hater's gonna hate.

shine
10-21-2011, 02:37 PM
Any statement re the likelihood of Weir having any kind of influence on his contemporaries results in an overstatement against that notion. Who exactly said Weir should be “credited” with Buttle’s and Lambiel’s “success.” Of course, they should each be “credited” with their own success. Factually, Buttle and Lambiel came on the senior international scene at Worlds in 2002 (2 years before Weir). Buttle placed 8th, 15th, missed a year, then jumped to 2nd in 2005 with two falls. He later landed in 6th twice, then worked on his 3-axel (possibly using Weir’s textbook perfect 3-axel as a model) and became World champion in 2008. His sp in competition with Weir at ’08 Worlds arguably could have had either in first place – they were both excellent, but Buttle was definitely more popular with the judges and had a strong supportive fed behind him. Lambiel at senior Worlds placed 18th, 10th, and then came in 4th in ’04 just ahead of a cleaner Weir in Weir’s first trip to Worlds. The following year, Lambiel was World champion, Buttle was second, Weir skated well with an injury (and had arguably two of the most compelling and GP-winning programs that season), but for some reason placed out of the medals again at Worlds just behind his still juniorish-looking teammate.

Nice recap, but I think I am missing the point here....

Love Matt Savoie. Loved his 2005 LP. I miss his skating so much. He's one of the most musical and subtle skaters I've ever seen. And since this thread has gone completely OT, here's another gem from Matt at 2002 Worlds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w872zjNfzY It's a travesty that he was only 11th. Besides skating programs full of transitions, his crazy triple axel entries required so much athleticism yet that was so overlooked. Did judges have conscience back then? If only COP had been in place back then.....!!

aftershocks
10-22-2011, 08:24 AM
Nice recap, but I think I am missing the point here....

Love Matt Savoie. ... here's another gem from Matt at 2002 Worlds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w872zjNfzY ...

Very much way OT --however, since you asked, shine -- my "recap" was in response to dinakt's #675 post, which misinterpreted a previous post of mine in this "mistitled" or rather "misadventurous," wandering thread. Earlier, I had pointed out my belief that Johnny influenced his generation of skaters, and that despite Johnny not receiving a great deal of respect from the judges, Johnny's skating surely made a difference through his showing the aesthetic beauty and grace that men can achieve (artistry and athleticism, which departed from the macho, jump-focused era of Elvis and Plushy). In that new atmosphere, Buttle and Lambiel began to be appreciated more, which contrary to dinakt's interpretation, does not mean Johnny should be "credited with their success."

Thanks for the additional Matt Savoie link!

Vagabond
10-22-2011, 07:44 PM
here's another gem from Matt at 2002 Worlds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w872zjNfzY It's a travesty that he was only 11th. Besides skating programs full of transitions, his crazy triple axel entries required so much athleticism yet that was so overlooked. Did judges have conscience back then? If only COP had been in place back then.....!!

For comparison, here is Michael Weiss's sixth-placed free skate from the same competition (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7iRsCpvNuk&feature=related).

Weiss's scores:

6 Michael WEISS USA 6.0
5.4 5.3 5.2 5.3 5.4 5.5 5.3 5.4 5.3 #23
5.7 5.5 5.5 5.7 5.6 5.7 5.6 5.7 5.4
11.1 10.8 10.7 11.0 11.0 11.2 10.9 11.1 10.7
4 5 6 6 6 5 6 6 7

Savoie's scores:

11 Matthew SAVOIE USA 11.0
5.2 5.0 5.1 5.3 5.2 5.4 5.3 5.3 5.1 #10
5.2 5.2 5.2 5.3 5.3 5.4 5.5 5.4 5.3
10.4 10.2 10.3 10.6 10.5 10.8 10.8 10.7 10.4
11 12 11 11 11 11 9 11 10

http://www.icecalc.com/events/wc2002/results/SEG064.HTM

Even applying 6.0 standards, it's hard to see how the judges could have justified placing Weiss ahead of Savoie, let alone by such a significant margin. Yes, Weiss did attempt a quadruple lutz, but he two-footed it and then fell. (It may also have been underrotated.) And other than maybe having more power in his stroking than Savoie did, it's hard to see anything Weiss did that was clearly better.

aemeraldrainc
10-22-2011, 10:33 PM
For comparison, here is Michael Weiss's sixth-placed free skate from the same competition (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7iRsCpvNuk&feature=related).

Weiss's scores:

6 Michael WEISS USA 6.0
5.4 5.3 5.2 5.3 5.4 5.5 5.3 5.4 5.3 #23
5.7 5.5 5.5 5.7 5.6 5.7 5.6 5.7 5.4
11.1 10.8 10.7 11.0 11.0 11.2 10.9 11.1 10.7
4 5 6 6 6 5 6 6 7

Savoie's scores:

11 Matthew SAVOIE USA 11.0
5.2 5.0 5.1 5.3 5.2 5.4 5.3 5.3 5.1 #10
5.2 5.2 5.2 5.3 5.3 5.4 5.5 5.4 5.3
10.4 10.2 10.3 10.6 10.5 10.8 10.8 10.7 10.4
11 12 11 11 11 11 9 11 10

http://www.icecalc.com/events/wc2002/results/SEG064.HTM

Even applying 6.0 standards, it's hard to see how the judges could have justified placing Weiss ahead of Savoie, let alone by such a significant margin. Yes, Weiss did attempt a quadruple lutz, but he two-footed it and then fell. (It may also have been underrotated.) And other than maybe having more power in his stroking than Savoie did, it's hard to see anything Weiss did that was clearly better.


Yes! How dare he? How can Weiss live with himself?? :rofl:
Being :drama:, but I totally agree.
Besides, as it's been said before...
Don't blame the skaters, blame the judges! :wuzrobbed