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aftershocks
10-09-2011, 07:11 AM
I so miss this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndzB7ZWOE3c&t=1m) Amodio. :(


I too miss a different Amodio. Not so much that (I think the program is nice, but a bit ordinary), but rather something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUYbJauxPfw. I feel that it is one of the most authentic (I mean the feeling, not so much the moves) flamenco programs that I've seen from a singles skater. Of course, we can't quite compare competition programs to exhibition performances. But, unfortunately, Amodio's new exhibition program to Ray Charles is worse than the previous one.

Yes, both linked vids are much more watchable than his Michael Jackson routine from last season and this season's showings. What's next, Amodio as a freaky, subpar James Brown???
Actually, ha ha, as much as I love James Brown's funky moves and music, I'm sorry for bringing up this idea, as Morozov just might use it. Unfortunately, I can see it now, Amodio doing the JB watuzi digging a hole in one spot on the ice, mugging all the while in a James Brown era wig! :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgDrJ5Z2rKw

I enjoyed Amodio's lp from 2009:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS2GGNJexf0
(I saw him for the first time at Worlds when he performed this routine). I thought he was interesting and someone to watch. Sadly, not so much now.
Morozov seems to look for over-the-top and attention-grabbing and what he thinks will work, rather than what might be the better more authentic approach for his skaters.


I still think it was unfair, but then, life's unfair so not much of an argument on that end. :(
Thanks for your thoughts everyone. :)

Since Matt was not fairly rewarded (especially the low-balling in the above-posted video, which is just inexcusable), we need to find reasons why. He first burst on the scene as an excellent jumper (and he was touted as a new up-and-comer), and then he began to be somewhat inconsistent (perhaps due to nerves or injury). It was difficult for Matt to break through as a front-runner during the heydays of Michael Weiss and Timothy Goebel. And then came Johnny as 3-time National champion. Also, the judges preferred Lysacek in 2005 (actually giving Lysacek rather than Matt a 6.0 in the sp!!! :eek: -- completely ridiculous, no matter what judging system was being used). So, for Matt, it was a combination of bad luck, political favoritism, a less than stellar showing at Worlds which perhaps partly led to U.S. judges throwing everything to Lysacek for the 3rd spot in '05 instead of rewarding Matt for a clearly superior effort. It was also Matt's shyness, which Matt himself discussed as being a drawback for him in competition.

Triple Butz
10-09-2011, 07:54 AM
Also, the judges preferred Lysacek in 2005 (actually giving Lysacek rather than Matt a 6.0 in the sp!!! :eek: -- completely ridiculous, no matter what judging system was being used).

Truer words have never been spoken.

Jaana
10-09-2011, 08:22 AM
So, for Matt, it was a combination of bad luck, political favoritism, a less than stellar showing at Worlds which perhaps partly led to U.S. judges throwing everything to Lysacek for the 3rd spot in '05 instead of rewarding Matt for a clearly superior effort. It was also Matt's shyness, which Matt himself discussed as being a drawback for him in competition.

Yeah, and how absolutely right those judges were: Lysacek won his first bronze medal at 2005 Worlds. The next year (Lysacek won his second bronze medal) Savoie participated in Worlds and finished 11th, IIRC.

aftershocks
10-09-2011, 08:45 AM
Lol, just b/c Worlds judges also went for U.S. fed's over-hyping of Lysacek does not mean the scoring at Nationals was "right." Neither was the ridiculous scoring at Worlds that year either. Yep, when your fed isn't too interested in supporting you (neither will the international judges). And sometimes even when your fed gets behind you 100% e.g., with RyanB this past year, int'l judges are simply unkind. Their scoring was like they were saying WTF! (Anyways, I think RB is more engaging and charming than Lysacek, albeit not as consistent or flexible, altho' RB did manage to do fairly well with the quad on some occasions, and I love his back flip, and his smile).

I guess when you agree with the judges, their scoring is a clear justification for whatever.

aemeraldrainc
10-09-2011, 10:02 AM
And just imagine what Savoie might have accomplished if only he had the support and encouragement of the fed behind him.
Say what you will, but their place in the scheme of things definitely affects, if it doesn't determine, outcomes.
Obviously, it's all might've, could've, would've, should've at this point. But what are we here for, right?
JMVHO, of course.

Jaana
10-09-2011, 10:39 AM
Yep, when your fed isn't too interested in supporting you (neither will the international judges). And sometimes even when your fed gets behind you 100% e.g., with RyanB this past year, int'l judges are simply unkind. Their scoring was like they were saying WTF!

Lysacek got the 3rd spot for the Worlds. Are you implying that he got the whole support of US federation at the Worlds and that is why he won the bronze medal and not Weir or Goebel, LOL?

And however much a fan likes RyanBīs skating does not mean that the international judges should appreciate it, too. Besides, as he was the US champion, why did not US fedīs support give him the bronze medal if the fedīs support will get you medals, LOL? Oh, yeah, in his case the international judges were just "unkind" :lol::lol::lol::lol:

aemeraldrainc
10-09-2011, 11:07 AM
Oh dear. What have I started ??
:argue:
:slinkaway

paskatefan
10-09-2011, 12:24 PM
And just imagine what Savoie might have accomplished if only he had the support and encouragement of the fed behind him.
Say what you will, but their place in the scheme of things definitely affects, if it doesn't determine, outcomes.
Obviously, it's all might've, could've, would've, should've at this point. But what are we here for, right?
JMVHO, of course.

I felt Matt was shortchanged at the 2002 Nationals, and should have made the Olympic team (I do like Mike, but this spot should have gone to Matt). Once I realized that Todd opted not to go to Worlds (he had just joined SOI :) :D), my first thought was, "Great' - now, Matt will have a chance to go!" Fast forward to 2006, and Matt won the bronze medal @ US Nationals. I felt a little sad for Mike (I really liked his programs that season, and he reflected on his gratitude toward the sport back then), but was thrilled for Matt. He finally had his chance to compete at the Olympics and another chance at Worlds. :D

Primorskaya
10-09-2011, 12:55 PM
Oh dear. What have I started ??
:argue:
:slinkaway

LOL times infinity. Run for your life. Touching Golden Evan, even if you never meant to be disparaging, is more than your life's worth. It exposes you to a somewhat hysterical a barrage of reasons why he is the greatest and always will be, by people pretending to laugh at your ineptitude and lack of taste (witness those 4 giggling faces, cos one just ain't enough) while actually fuming at the non-believers. Highly-strung, much? :P

Vagabond
10-09-2011, 05:04 PM
Yeah, and how absolutely right those judges were: Lysacek won his first bronze medal at 2005 Worlds. The next year (Lysacek won his second bronze medal) Savoie participated in Worlds and finished 11th, IIRC.

I thought they were judges not clairvoyants. :confused:

Judge's Scores for the Men's Short Program at 2005 U.S. Nationals (http://www.usfsa.org/event_related_details.asp?ri=content/events/200405/uschamps/seniormen-short.htm)

Timothy Goebel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0EjEssavls) (first place)
Johnny Weir (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlBrJsGXkGc) (second place)
Evan Lysacek (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAWdSzNdiZE&feature=related) (third place)
Matthew Savoie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFAsNpBJbk0) (fourth place)

I couldn't find a video of Michael Weiss's fifth-place performance, which two judges marked higher than Savoie's, but if you listen to the beginning of the Savoie video, you will hear that Weiss had "a disappointing opening."

It would be a close decision between the first four, but judging by the videos, Savoie could probably rightly have been placed first in this program. His jumps were harder and better executed, and his transitions were much better too. The fact that only two judges placed him higher than fourth and that two placed him fifth behind either a flawed Weiss or an even more flawed Ryan Jahnke speaks volumes.

Given the choice, the U.S. judges normally favored Weiss, Goebel, Lysacek, and Weir over Savoie, and not because of how they actually skated.

AliasJohnDoe
10-09-2011, 05:46 PM
As for those Nationals judges in 2005, they plainly didn't foresee that Savoie would finish higher than Weir at the Olympics the following season. Shame on them! ;)

Oops...now you really "are" whackin' at a hornet's nest. :lol:

I preferred Savoie over all the other US men during that time. :D

Triple Butz
10-09-2011, 07:15 PM
As for those Nationals judges in 2005, they plainly didn't foresee that Savoie would finish higher than Weir at the Olympics the following season. Shame on them! ;)

Johnny finished two places above Matt in Torino.

Vagabond
10-09-2011, 07:22 PM
Johnny finished two places above Matt in Torino.

:duh:

I was thinking of the LP, not the overall results.

Savoie sure mucked up the SP there, didn't he? :yikes:

Louise
10-09-2011, 07:55 PM
There are two US skaters that I think just were skating in the wrong generation: Matt Savoie and Ryan Jahnke. Impeccable skills, choreography for days, and mostly landed their jumps. It was too early in COP for them to get the scores, but when Chan falls three or four times and get first place scores, it was on the backs of skaters like these two that it became possible.
I was never a Savoie uber, but I think it was 1999 Nationals when he was totally robbed of a Worlds spot when Timmy Goebel imploded. All the talk was of Timmy and he just bombed, and had NO presentation to speak of to fall back on. People 'in the know' at the time told me that Savoie had a no-politik coach and he was always going to be bridesmaid or less. It seemed apparent. I could not think of ONE reason the judges at 1999 Nationals could have placed Goebel ahead of Savoie, except for the hope that he'd land his quad/s at a later date. I'd have to look at the programs again, but I believe Savoie did two 3/3s, and stupidly repeated a second lutz after two axels and toes. But STILL, he was always a better skater than Timmy Goebel.
I can only sit here satisfied that Savoie got his Olympic moment, and Jahnke did have his moment at Worlds. I followed Jahnke in Mids for like a decade, and just watching him move was a delight. His skating was surreal.
I might even post them from Ytube after I go watch them.

dinakt
10-09-2011, 08:13 PM
Random thoughts.
Savoie :swoon: Great skater, ahead of his time.
Amodio's new LP. What on Earth IS that:confused: Where is Amodio's skating skills and transitions that he had at 19. To me, so far, this program is unwatchable.
Off topic, and nothing detrimental to Johnny- but let's not credit him with Buttle's and Lambiel's success. They all are very much contemporaries, and both Buttle and Lambiel got their breaks before Johnny did.