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The Accordion
10-07-2011, 01:06 AM
I hate to be yet another dead horse beater on this MAKE PETA ANGRY poor dead horse beating thread - but I do have to ask the question - just in case I missed it - with all the people saying

"NO WAY SHOULD CHAN WIN WITH THREE FALLS"

has ANYONE actually argued who should have won instead?

is the reality that no one cares AS long as CHAN DOESN'T WIN WITH THREE FALLS?

I hate to break it to you folks - but there has to be a winner -Judges can't just decide who doesn't win because he has 3 falls - and there has to be marks to back up the winner.

So if Chan shouldn't have won - who should have? - And please enlighten me using the protocol.

Kay thanks :)

I am now going to do my very best to refrain from beating the poor dead horse I have been beating in here.

Iceman
10-07-2011, 01:19 AM
Falls are the most visible error, so people focus on them. I think that's natural.

Silly anecdote: Last year I coerced my brother into watching Skate Canada with me. He usually doesn't watch the sport at all. He was confused and even a little angry about Patrick winning and declared the whole thing fixed. And that's the problem with these multiple-fall programs winning. Patrick is inarguably great and can wipe the floor with anyone on a good day, but watching him literally wipe the floor is really, really confusing for the casual viewer. A confused casual viewer isn't going to bother to watch again.


And that is one reason, the sport attracts so few new fans. Another is that if you can convince someone like your brother to watch more than one competition, he will see a skater at the second competition in the same costume skating the same program to the same music and often thinks "We've already seen that; let's change channels lol".

kwanfan1818
10-07-2011, 01:41 AM
So if Chan shouldn't have won - who should have? - And please enlighten me using the protocol.

Kay thanks :)

I think there were some noises that Gachinski should have won, based on Chan being over-marked by at least a point in each PCS because of the disruption of the falls, putting aside that the TR and CH criteria in particular are mainly program-specific and not skater-specific, and the PE criteria don't speak to what many think the problem is. Plus, he landed a quad.

Since PCS are doubled in the FS for Men, one point less on each PCS would have punished Chan given Chan 10 points less, and put him in second, slightly ahead of Kozuka. I think there were calls for a couple of point deductions for PE and SS, because flaws in SS deducted from GOE are not enough. Had that been applied, then Chan would have gotten 7's in three PCS and 6's in two PCS, and that would have put him behind Kozuka for bronze.

Buttle, Amodio, and Takahashi were too far behind for any of these remedies to affect their placement.

os168
10-07-2011, 02:38 AM
I think there were some noises that Gachinski should have won, based on Chan being over-marked by at least a point in each PCS because of the disruption of the falls, putting aside that the TR and CH criteria in particular are mainly program-specific and not skater-specific, and the PE criteria don't speak to what many think the problem is. Plus, he landed a quad.


Except Gachinski fell his opening jump too or does that not count?

I can make a case Artur's program actually require far less effort because it follows almost the exact same format as Miki's layout.

2 jump passes right in at the beginning to start things off (including a combination jump), followed by time consuming slow spins then a bunch of 'take things easy' choreography along with slow music for whole 1min 20 seconds just for footstep sequences alone (good grief, I was counting the clock). With not a lot actual skating nor upper body movement or pace.

Footwork at mild speed along with slow music not covering much ice or utilise different areas of the arena. A bunch of *blue steel* arty posing (hey isn't this tactic becoming a trend!?).

Finally upon reaching half way point, fired away a bunch of jumps (7!) sequentially all at once with not much transitions or attempt at choreography. Then some more step sequences and finally a spin to finish off. How ridiculous and original. How :rolleyes:

Patrick offered far more diversity of movements, balanced ways to utilise skating skills and elements, flow, and greater (and exhaustive) use of upper body movements. And most important of all, ice coverage (This being a skating competition right?). In fact I bet if you are to measure their ice coverage distance; how they make use of the arena and bother to count the number of transitions! Patrick wins hands down (pun intended) His program and performance has far more content and require far more effort to be successful overall. Therefore he should win, falls and all.

MR-FAN
10-07-2011, 02:44 AM
The mere thought that Chan's PCS should match Gachinski's... Oh dear. And here I thought the real outrage would be the wuzgifting of Gachinski's 74+ PCS. Do people not see what I see when these 2 skate?!?

kwanfan1818
10-07-2011, 02:50 AM
Except Gachinski fell his opening jump too or does that not count?


Three seems to be some magic number, if everyone else in contention has fewer falls, so apparently, no.

Proustable
10-07-2011, 02:58 AM
Yeah, I don't get it.

Triple Butz
10-07-2011, 03:08 AM
The mere thought that Chan's PCS should match Gachinski's... Oh dear. And here I thought the real outrage would be the wuzgifting of Gachinski's 74+ PCS. Do people not see what I see when these 2 skate?!?

ITA. A world where Gachinski can beat Kozuka in PCS is not a world I want to live in :drama:

ChelleC
10-07-2011, 03:50 AM
ITA. A world where Gachinski can beat Kozuka in PCS is not a world I want to live in :drama:


The only skater Gachinski should have beaten in PCS is Amodio.

Aussie Willy
10-07-2011, 03:52 AM
The mere thought that Chan's PCS should match Gachinski's... Oh dear. And here I thought the real outrage would be the wuzgifting of Gachinski's 74+ PCS. Do people not see what I see when these 2 skate?!?

:lol: Good point.

ciocio
10-07-2011, 07:58 AM
Chan's scores are just disgusting. No-one should be able to win a competition with 3 falls in one program. I don't care who you are, NO-ONE should be able to do that. It's called figure SKATING, not figure FALLING.


Absolutely totally agree with above. No wonderful intermediate twirling and swirling transitions should possibly compensate for falling on three jumps, the hardest elements....

Ok. So, who should have won?:confused:

Primorskaya
10-07-2011, 09:57 AM
Weighing in with my tuppence's worth: under the current system, Chan is the rightful winner, falls and all. The only quibble is, it could have been by a narrower margin, which is why I was grumbling about it earlier on in this thread.

Thanks gkelly and kwanfan1818 for the very informative posts about the current points awarding system, and especially the suggested reforms like having larger minus GOE on high value jumps, which I totally agree with, it would be fair to everyone. I'm no expert on the finer points of CoP (learning fast now ;) ) so this was super helpful.

I don't think comparing Chan and Gachinsky is going to prove or disprove anything at this stage, it's like comparing apples and oranges. Patrick is 21 and has massive mileage (not just referring to the impressive ice coverage!) on the Senior circuit, his skills are well polished. I like Artur and I can see him doing well in the future, but it's pretty obvious he's still a work in progress.

minx
10-07-2011, 02:46 PM
Pardon me for not reading the entire thread, but did Jeff Buttle crack open the display case at Allandale and take his costume out? Nice 3A. Damn impressive.

seabm7
10-07-2011, 03:22 PM
Pardon me for not reading the entire thread, but did Jeff Buttle crack open the display case at Allandale and take his costume out? Nice 3A. Damn impressive.

I was asking the same question to myself, wondering if he ordered another piece solely for this competition.

shine
10-07-2011, 03:26 PM
ITA. A world where Gachinski can beat Kozuka in PCS is not a world I want to live in :drama:

Well, Gachinski may not be the skater that Patrick Chan is and his program not jam packed with transitions, but overall that is a very unique, well thought out program and I thought he really committed to the choreography and presented it quite well. I would give him high CH, IN and PE. People should really stop talking like he's completely crap :P