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bartek
10-04-2011, 07:27 PM
Yeah isn't it an utter travesty? Same with Miki's new program that follows same set up as last year: 2 jump passes, long spins, then long mid sections of almost nothingness at stand still pace, consist of posing elegantly, meaningless blank look moonlighting as artistic choreography doing at very slowly pace, (hint: must choose lovely slow music to justify), but really are about killing time, allowing the skater some breathing space to conserve energy for the big 2nd half 10% bonus, then setting up multiple jumps all at 2nd half one after another with little or no transitions, then almost pause with a spin to catch up breath, then footsteps at the end with spin to finish off.

It is a joke really! Sad thing is, seems other top ladies are following this format. As I have been saying, COP system has been cracked, it is time for revision. Otherwise we will continue to see systematic abuse of quality choreography at the expenses of points with lazy creativity and contrived skating.

When Plushenko won his titles with frontloaded jumps peaople were complaining. Now when someone is smart enough AND has enough strength/skills to put most of his/her jumps in second half peaople again are complaining. I mean, it's more difficult to do jumps in the second half when you're tired than do them in the begining. I think it's good CoP rewards jumps in the second half and love e.g. Liza's 3S+3T in her FS.

MarieM
10-04-2011, 07:28 PM
Yeah it would be tough but not impossible. If any one can in the figure skating world, I bet Daisuke can, he got the range, the humour and the charisma for it :P
He would be a perfect Porco Rosso :) The charisma and humor ;)

Ah it makes me wish.

Do japanese know Hisaishi is like a god in Paris and most of France ? ;)

I wish someone, one day, will pick this one too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-s7rX2FdE0&feature=related

I'm obsessed I know ;)

kwanfan1818
10-04-2011, 07:30 PM
Carolina Kostner did 3Lz/3T and 3F/3T with mixed success until she had an injury that made the lutz and flip difficult. In 2003 Sokolova's opening combination was 3Lz/3T.

Since CoP a lot of the Euros Ladies have been attempting 3T/3T, but most of them are OES skaters who haven't done as well in the final results. An exception is Lepisto.

midori
10-04-2011, 07:41 PM
I think Kozuka's FS music was re-recorded just for the program. I saw a video clip of the recording on TV.

MarieM
10-04-2011, 07:43 PM
I think Kozuka's FS music was re-recorded just for the program. I saw a video clip of the recording on TV.
It's noce knowing the success of the concert of Hisaishi in Paris this summer. IT was packed to the ground.
Nice choice :) I wish more japanese would skate to some of their own composers.
Hisaishi is a god, but some others aren't bad either. Yoko Kano is the first other example that comes to my mind, I love her work !

LilJen
10-04-2011, 07:48 PM
Kozuka's choice has made me keep hoping that someone might skate to princess mononoke score one day:swoon:
I think the program -when he will be more comfortable with it-will be great!

Heh, *I* am skating to Princess Mononoke. . . of course I'm only barely an Adult Bronze level :P I revere Joe Hisashi and all things Miyazaki/Studio Ghibli. . . Loving Kozuka's program and music choice. Yes, it has a ways to go before he gets really comfortable with it. But I just LOVE his skating skills overall, and the way he (usually) makes the jumps come out of nowhere and look so easy.

Also wishing Joannie and Jeff would come back--but I imagine they've both been enjoying travel, not having to worry about levels or 3-3s or 3axels. . . maybe this is who "they" were thinking of for the Olympic team event. . .

gkelly
10-04-2011, 07:52 PM
Yeah isn't it an utter travesty? Same with Miki's new program that follows same set up as last year: 2 jump passes, long spins, then long mid sections of almost nothingness at stand still pace, consist of posing elegantly, meaningless blank look moonlighting as artistic choreography doing at very slowly pace, (hint: must choose lovely slow music to justify), but really are about killing time, allowing the skater some breathing space to conserve energy for the big 2nd half 10% bonus, then setting up multiple jumps all at 2nd half one after another with little or no transitions, then almost pause with a spin to catch up breath, then footsteps at the end with spin to finish off.

It is a joke really! Sad thing is, seems other top ladies are following this format. As I have been saying, COP system has been cracked, it is time for revision. Otherwise we will continue to see systematic abuse of quality choreography at the expenses of points with lazy creativity and contrived skating.

There are only a few possible ways to order the jumps, spins, and step sequences throughout a program, especially when the number of each is the same for all skaters in the same type of event (e.g., senior ladies). Pretty much all programs are going to have variations on the themes of frontloaded jumps, backloaded jumps, three sections of jumps-other stuff-jumps, or jumps alternated with non-jump elements.

The aerobic demands of difficult programs will rule out some of the possible templates for many skaters. That's why several hardest jumps (or almost all jumps) at the beginning was the norm during the 1980s and 90s and early 2000s, i.e., the triple jump era under 6.0.

The rules might encourage a particular template. If you change the rules, then another basic template will become the most common.

Just changing the order of the elements will not, in most cases, make for a more interesting program. What distinguishes an original, interesting program from one that's just painting by numbers is the originality of the in-between skating, the spatial patterns the program lays out on the ice, and the way the movements relate to the music.

Is the goal to encourage skaters and choreographers to come up with more interesting and original choices, i.e., quality choreography, within whichever of the basic templates they choose? Or is it just to encourage more variety of templates across the field?

Should we start a thread in the Trash Can to discuss how rules could be changed to encourage more variety and/or more quality?

icellist
10-04-2011, 08:05 PM
i love the hisaishi recommendations. his music is very "skate-able". since i've been on fsu, i have continuously pushed for more Hisaishi programs. Sadly, but i guess fortunately, skaters don't actually take our advice on the forums :D

Despite being very successful with soundtrack music, joe hisaishi has many non-movie music. Mirai's POTC program had Fragile Dream that wasn't from and movie; it was wonderfully cut into the music. Here's some of his other music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plwNHYvyWA4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QAGPUDV-0c&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpIQHMmYP7I&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwlsNxaORtE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT8S0gHDsfQ

sorry if this felt like spam XD

LilJen
10-04-2011, 08:10 PM
PS: Can we launch a campaign to send CDs to Lori Nichol? If the woman would just use OTHER MUSIC, we wouldn't have to have these lengthy arguments about whose version of some warhorse is "the best."

One of the things I appreciated about Jeff Buttle was that he often used interesting/underused music (Nagoyqatsi--AWESOME!). . . unlike his successor <ahem, Mr Chan!>

caseyedwards
10-04-2011, 08:42 PM
When Plushenko won his titles with frontloaded jumps peaople were complaining. Now when someone is smart enough AND has enough strength/skills to put most of his/her jumps in second half peaople again are complaining. I mean, it's more difficult to do jumps in the second half when you're tired than do them in the begining. I think it's good CoP rewards jumps in the second half and love e.g. Liza's 3S+3T in her FS.

But the trend is to do less and less in the first half so you are less tired to do stuff in the second half to get the bonus. Talking about Amodio or Oda or Lysacek with their 2 or 3 jumps and extended step sequences which go on forever to save energy is about taking the bonus. At 2:15 everything is worth more so why not just start at the 2:15 mark? That is the trend. I am just surprised that Amodio starts with a quad salchow. I thought the 6 jumps after the halfway point would be done with all triples. Morozov and Nichol and Carroll are all about using the halfway point bonus. They do not tire out their skaters in the first half. A halfway point bonus means something if you do a lot. Like Plushenko did a lot in the first half and would be tired for the second. But now like no skater is tired by the second half because they are not really doing anything.

Triple Butz
10-04-2011, 08:53 PM
PS: Can we launch a campaign to send CDs to Lori Nichol? If the woman would just use OTHER MUSIC, we wouldn't have to have these lengthy arguments about whose version of some warhorse is "the best."



I'm down. iTunes download gift cards for Xmas??? :lol: It's really getting obnoxious IMO.

Okami
10-04-2011, 08:58 PM
When Plushenko won his titles with frontloaded jumps peaople were complaining. Now when someone is smart enough AND has enough strength/skills to put most of his/her jumps in second half peaople again are complaining. I mean, it's more difficult to do jumps in the second half when you're tired than do them in the begining. I think it's good CoP rewards jumps in the second half and love e.g. Liza's 3S+3T in her FS.

I agree with you. I find jumps in the second half very impressive.

Personally I don't care if there are 3, 4 or 5 jumps in the second half, as long as the program is interesting. If the program is not interesting - well, that's a problem, but IMHO just the fact that a skater did more jumps in the second half than in the first one doesn't automatically make the program suck. For the record, I loved the step sequence in Oda's Chaplin (and the whole program, for that matter) - it was fun, in character, expressed the music well and had good ice coverage. I'd take it any day over wild flailing with no connection to music whatsoever.

os168
10-04-2011, 09:45 PM
He was tentative, quite slow and I think the missed ending was more due to that travesty of a combination spin which was in trouble right from the get go. I completely disagree with your assumption that Kozuka one of the less musically aware skaters. Go and watch his Liszt programs from last season - he barely misses a single beat from one competition to another. So ON the music every time. You can't do that if you lack musical awareness. (And ITA with whoever said upthread that his Liszt from Worlds was THE performance of the season and for my money right up there with the worlds greatest ever mens LP's at Worlds.)
For all his tentativeness at the Japan open I was mesmerised by it and cannot wait to see how this program develops. Hoping a new costume is in the offing though.

Okay this is going to get a bit arty... sporting enthusiasts look away! ;)

I think it depends on how you define what is having good musicality and being music aware. For me personally, it is the ability to instinctively play around with any piece music, covering a wide range of style, rhythms, capable of understand it, adapt to it, interpret instinctively and quickly, then trying to communicate its message effectively including shape it with originality and thoughts, generally an enriched opinion expressed outwardly during the process and deliver it in a convincing manner. It is not one thing, but a whole range of things.

I've watched his Franz Liszt live in Moscow, it was a great performance! When Taka is packaged with the right material that complemented his style and that he is well practiced, it can became a great performance like he was able to deliver there. However artistically to me, there were literally no correlation between performance, interpretation and the music. To me his timing were the result of hard work done through repeated practice, from being told what to do but really, he has no opinion on it. It is not genuinely expressed with true feelings with any sense of rhythm or appreciation like a musically aware performer would. The difference between a maestro and a amateur who plays the same piece of music is the Maestro make decisions either to amplify the intention of the music notation by the composer, or bring his own unique perspective of what would be even better. The amateur would able to play everything on time but nothing more.

If you compare this performance with his exhibition at WC, I feel is a better musical performance because he clearly have an opinion with real purpose and made the emotional connection. He then are no longer a slave to the music unlike during his competitions.

In Japan, Nausicaa is an all time famous beloved suite of music that many adults and children are very familiar with. The fact he is still unable to adapt to the music or hit the final note (he was early not late), speaks volumes of his lacking in this area. If you know the music and you can't still perform on time, that is a biggie! His previous programs all illustrate these weaknesses too!

Actually Liszt Piano 1 suit Taka's style of performance very well (Like how Morricone's The Mission is great at shielding Ando's lack of musicality with lovingly warm foggy/cushion notes). Imho, Lizst may come from the Romanticism art period era, but this piece of work is spear headed towards a new Realism era. It was composed during the over lapping arts periods. It requires clinical precision, little room for abstraction, yet at the same there's no particular theme or emotional anchor between each movements. It disregard sentimentality, classical idealization and simply portray notes as an extension of composers existential values, his own sense of grandeur. To construct an original new format of Piano concerto that fully challenges his newly found principles and virtuosity.

In summary Piano No.1 is a self referential work designed to show off Lizt's technical brilliance rather than to follow any particular emotional persuasion (how German!). As such, there's no real interpretation needed since the notation is already overwhelming, you just have to deliver the virtuosity at key junctures in a grand fashion, in which Taka did.

So the question then becomes does the virtuosity of this piece of music impress you or does it move you?
That pretty much summarized how I feel about Kozuka's skating when done right. :)

tkaug
10-04-2011, 11:19 PM
I LOOOOVE Kozuka's choice of Music. Kane no Tani no Naushika. AT LAST someone is skating to one of Hisaishi's best soundtrack ever. And it suits him.
La la lalala lala.

You reminded me of Finland's Jenni Vahamaa skating to Howl's Moving Castle.
So pity that she retired so young!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDX-piSYmeQ

os168
10-04-2011, 11:27 PM
When Plushenko won his titles with frontloaded jumps peaople were complaining. Now when someone is smart enough AND has enough strength/skills to put most of his/her jumps in second half peaople again are complaining. I mean, it's more difficult to do jumps in the second half when you're tired than do them in the begining. I think it's good CoP rewards jumps in the second half and love e.g. Liza's 3S+3T in her FS.

It depends on why you watch skating? And what keeps you watching it?

I personally watch skating for its beauty and rare moments of transcendence when everything inexplicably comes together brilliantly. Creativity, physical prowess, risk taking, hard work, luck, endurance, bravery, virtuosity, technical superiority and musicality.

For that to happen, a sense of balance is absolutely necessary, which I think COP tries its best to reward as accurately as it can. Morozov's approach wins medals, wins competitions, but they are producing junk that people like me have no desire to watch again (other may do, but there's no accounting for taste :P). I believe it may hurt the skaters too in the long run as well, and the create a disproportionate competitive advantage. Most of all, it kills the beauty of the sports and makes me :mad:


There are only a few possible ways to order the jumps, spins, and step sequences throughout a program, especially when the number of each is the same for all skaters in the same type of event (e.g., senior ladies). Pretty much all programs are going to have variations on the themes of frontloaded jumps, backloaded jumps, three sections of jumps-other stuff-jumps, or jumps alternated with non-jump elements.

The rules might encourage a particular template. If you change the rules, then another basic template will become the most common.

Is the goal to encourage skaters and choreographers to come up with more interesting and original choices, i.e., quality choreography, within whichever of the basic templates they choose? Or is it just to encourage more variety of templates across the field?

Should we start a thread in the Trash Can to discuss how rules could be changed to encourage more variety and/or more quality?

I agree Gkelly that it is natural people want to exploit any fault of the system.
Morozov is smart and should be commended, but at the same time system failed because it did not identify its vulnerability in time to be exploited.

People watch figure skating for both arts AND sports, but it is the art that sustains the sport therefore it should be protected. Morozov's strategy will satisfy the sporting and the competition aspect, but it is killing the art.

To create great pieces of artistic work, the fundamental are to write an original creative brief that identifies the theme, the core concepts, your inspirations, what you wish to express. The end result should be judged according to whether you are able to convince your audiences (not just the judges) successfully, with the required elements fully utilized creatively as an extension of your expressions with meaning and purpose. And that is really hard, tricky and require a lot of effort to get it right.

Morozov's format are: Okay lets rank all the elements scores as a matter of priority, do whatever is the easiest to gain maximum points and take least amount of risk so you don't loose the points. Stick them on a slowwwwwww easy listening pleasant classic music to distract them so you don't have to work as hard. Preferably a piece of music that will hide your weaknesses and hope nobody can spot them. The theme? Oh if is Egyptian music just wear a Cleopatra outfit (or is it the other way round)! Do your best and hope everyone who works harder than you make mistakes because they are not as smart as me.... hahah!

To put it simply, it is junk food, I want gourmet!! :o

It would be good if we can create a separate thread because the way the ladies program are going so far this year, it feels a bit creatively dead . Surely I am not alone in seeing this???