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aftershocks
10-04-2011, 05:22 AM
^^ ITA, PUNKPRINCESS, well said!



aftershocks, there's nothing wrong with being an uber, but could you at least be an uber with a sense of history? :saint:

Leaving aside the fact that Weir could do all six triples, the aspects of his performance that you admire so much aren't really so very different from what Toller Cranston (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGDW0yNQDiY&feature=related) and Charlie Tickner (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVNImLRliFU) (to name just two) were doing back in the 1970's.

Hi Vagabond,

OT -- Are you one of the snickerers or the bristlers, when it comes to Weir, or both? ;)

Forgive me for ever bringing up the unmentionable one in this thread. But since you commented about your knowledge of fs history and my apparent lack of “a sense of history” when it comes to my being a so-called “uber” of Johnny, I’d like to respond.

Again, par for the course for critics of Johnny to get a bit heated whenever he is complimented for his skating or God forbid, credited with making any kind of contribution to the sport. Simply stating that Johnny has impacted and influenced his generation of skaters takes absolutely nothing away from the incredible, revolutionary, history-making contributions of Toller Cranston, and the gorgeous skating of Charlie Tickner and many other great skater artists/ athletes. I don’t see any real need to make comparisons in this instance either, as that was not my point. I will say once again that Johnny brings his own brand of magic -- of course particular moves are not necessarily vastly different, but they become different in the whole of the performance, in the skater's movement style and execution. Johnny brought a uniqueness and a fresh excitement in a different era. His smooth and graceful style I think contributed to the sport seeing anew and appreciating in a different way the beauty and grace of men on ice. If you don’t feel the same way I do about Johnny, then enjoy the skaters you love.

I do wish to thank you for bringing up the importance of the sport’s history, as many fans today do seem to be solely caught up more in the now and rarely reflect upon and gain perspective on what’s happening now by remembering/ discovering and understanding more about the sport through the lens of the past.

Re the Toller video, ITA with the announcer: "There is no one in the world like Toller." Charlie too, has his own incomparable style. I remember loving watching both of them skate, back when I knew very little about fs but was always glued to the television when a skating event came on, which seemed to be even more rarely back then. Thanks for posting the links.

Vagabond
10-04-2011, 05:48 AM
Hi Vagabond,

OT -- Are you one of the snickerers or the bristlers, when it comes to Weir, or both? ;)

Neither. Here is a short, graphic summary of my feelings from when I first saw him skate on television to today:

:watch: :swoon: :respec: :confused: :wall: :rolleyes: :yikes: :eek: :scream: :blah: :) :shuffle:

doubleflutz
10-04-2011, 05:56 AM
Again, par for the course for critics of Johnny to get a bit heated whenever he is complimented for his skating or God forbid, credited with making any kind of contribution to the sport. Simply stating that Johnny has impacted and influenced his generation of skaters takes absolutely nothing away from the incredible, revolutionary, history-making contributions of Toller Cranston, and the gorgeous skating of Charlie Tickner and many other great skater artists/ athletes.

You're right, complimenting Johnny doesn't take anything away from other athletes. But he really didn't bring anything to the sport. I love him, I'm an uber, but there's no unique contribution he has, except maybe the explicit gender-bending in The Swan and I Love You/I Hate You, but that's unique to him, no one else does it yet. He just didn't do the things you're giving him credit for. Not even in the smaller world of American skating, but definitely not on the world stage. He didn't influence Stephane Lambiel or Jeffrey Buttle at all, and he and TAT didn't develop modern transitions, either. That was David Wilson, Lori Nichol, and their skaters (plus Ozzie Colson, I suppose).

No knock on Johnny, but you're crediting him with things that he just didn't do. He's a great skater, but just being a great skater doesn't mean you're innovative or brought anything to the sport besides your skating and programs. Michelle Kwan didn't innovate or bring anything new to the sport either: she was just very, very good at a lot of things the sport already valued, and of course very special to her fans.

doubleflutz
10-04-2011, 05:57 AM
Neither. Here is a short, graphic summary of my feelings from when I first saw him skate on television to today:

:watch: :swoon: :respec: :confused: :wall: :rolleyes: :yikes: :eek: :scream: :blah: :) :shuffle:

Let me guess: that final :) is Vancouver?

aftershocks
10-04-2011, 06:04 AM
And thanks to you too, for your contributions to the discussion, doubleflutz.

I'll refrain from "a short graphic summary of my feelings" upon reading your post. You make some interesting points, but you're also taking off from your own likes/ dislikes, and interpretations/ misinterpretations of my points of view. To each his own. I would trust more what Stephane and Jeffrey have to say about who among their peers might have inspired or influenced them in any way. There are all kinds of influences and inspirations in this sport.

Maybe we can agree that figure skating is a great sport/ art, as Ryan J so eloquently expresses, along with reflections by others, in his recently posted article in GSD.

MR-FAN
10-04-2011, 06:08 AM
Michelle Kwan didn't innovate or bring anything new to the sport either: she was just very, very good at a lot of things the sport already valued, and of course very special to her fans.

I can only speak for myself, but I group spiral sequences as pre-Kwan spirals and post-Kwan spirals. And I'm not talking just stretch. That's quite a contribution.

I also believe she was one of the first female skaters to perform extremely complex choreography into her performances. And in a sense, she defined what it takes to get a 6.0 for presentation during her reign. She also extended the boost that the sport got during the Harding Kerrigan fiasco in the US for over a decade, and it was partly due to her consistency and amazing skating skills that other skaters felt the need to push themselves technically to compete with her. Few were able to connect with the audience the way she did. She wasn't just a very good skater, she was a legend and the standard of excellence.

aftershocks
10-04-2011, 06:19 AM
^^ :respec:

Special to her fans, special to her peers and undeniably influential to a new generation of skaters. MK is sorely missed.

Okay, now, back on topic?

gkelly
10-04-2011, 06:27 AM
I also believe she was one of the first female skaters to perform extremely complex choreography into her performances.

I'll accept "one of," with the caveat that there were others doing it before and during the same period.

For example, Kristi Yamaguchi, Josee Chouinard, Olga Markova, Krisztina Czako, and others.

I would have been willing to say Kwan was the first to incorporate complex choreography and also seven triples on a regular basis, but Yamaguchi was working in the same vein.

I wouldn't leave out Ito, Harding, or Kerrigan either, for that matter.

No point in going back to the 80s or before, because in-betweens were more complex in general when skaters were doing fewer or no triple jumps.


And in a sense, she defined what it takes to get a 6.0 for presentation during her reign. She also extended the boost that the sport got during the Harding Kerrigan fiasco in the US for over a decade, and it was partly due to her consistency and amazing skating skills that other skaters felt the need to push themselves technically to compete with her. Few were able to connect with the audience the way she did. She wasn't just a very good skater, she was a legend and the standard of excellence.

All true. She maintained a standard of excellence for a long time, at a level where she was always a contender for the top honors and influenced many of her contemporaries and followers in the process. Because she was more of a dominant skater during a longer period, she had more influence than someone like Weir.

Still, I hate singling out individual skaters and giving them full credit for trends that they were the leading examples of. The influence is always mutual, with skaters pushing and borrowing from each other.

Vagabond
10-04-2011, 06:31 AM
Okay, now, back on topic?

Topic? What topic? :confused:

aftershocks
10-04-2011, 06:38 AM
:lol: we have indeed drifted far afield from the vastly alternate universe reactions to ... Japan Open, Patrick Chan :swoon: :rolleyes: , Daisuke :swoon: :encore: ....

doubleflutz
10-04-2011, 06:49 AM
I also believe she was one of the first female skaters to perform extremely complex choreography into her performances.

No way. Janet Lynn, Lisa Marie Allen, Liz Manley, Katarina Witt, Midori Ito, Tiffany Chin, Kristi Yamaguchi, Lu Chen... it depends on what you mean by "choreography", I suppose, but in terms of complex blade-to-ice moves that flowed seamlessly with the music, she was far from the first. If you add in "dancey posing", there's always Katarina!

bek
10-04-2011, 06:57 AM
No way. Janet Lynn, Lisa Marie Allen, Liz Manley, Katarina Witt, Midori Ito, Tiffany Chin, Kristi Yamaguchi, Lu Chen... it depends on what you mean by "choreography", I suppose, but in terms of complex blade-to-ice moves that flowed seamlessly with the music, she was far from the first. If you add in "dancey posing", there's always Katarina!

Lu Chen's Rachmaninov is still one of the all time best programs I've ever seen from a lady. I see loving Kwan but lets not insult those who went ahead of her.

aftershocks
10-04-2011, 07:18 AM
Since we're on the topic of great skaters who contributed to the sport:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKk-jQey0Ws

Now that's special. He was so great at performing to dramatic, emotional music. I don't remember seeing this performance, so it's cool to enjoy it now! What a sublime interpretive artist who turned his career around at '92 Olympics, and then had the opportunity to shine on the professional circuit. Those were the days.

Love to hear your viewpoints, bek, and I often agree with you. Have to say tho' I don't think someone saying they think MK was "one of" the first ladies to perform complex choreography should be considered an "insult" to anyone who came before her. It'd be interesting to hear Janet Lynn's, Dorothy Hamill's, Linda Fratianne's, Kat Witt's, Kristi Yamaguchi's, Chen Lu's and others' takes on what Kwan brought to the sport. The uplifting competition at 1996 Worlds was a treat for the eyes and a boon for the sport. Chen Lu was magnificent. Michelle Kwan was astounding. Todd Eldredge was remarkable -- a redemptive accomplishment for him, and it was quite touching when he placed his gold medal around his Mom's neck.

t.mann
10-04-2011, 08:26 AM
Liza's LP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK3W_tzkvCs

This girl is cute & charismatic.
BTW in my eyes, seems to be..

jump quality : Liza > Adelina
jump scale : Adelina > Liza

Jaana
10-04-2011, 11:20 AM
I just watched Chanīs performance, will go back to the rest later... Chanīs choreography is awesome and I love the way he floats on the ice so effortlessly. This will be fantastic programme later in the season as he is ready with the jumps. His interpretation of this music is fantastic, in my opinion.