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Louise
10-03-2011, 08:49 PM
Until I watched these programs I guess I wasn't aware of how much snooze inducing music some of my favorites were doing this season. :(

While I am heartened by the progress in Alissa's jumps, that program is AWFUL. It is completely lacking in choreography and transitions.

Liza, great jumps... but her weird arm usage, her hunched shoulders, that wretched layback, the ugly spiral, and her bent leg in her spins? Calm down people, she's got a LONG way to go. :P


I have no idea where Alissa is trying to take this program. It accentuates her lack of speed, transitions, and stalking of her jumps. Her SS are not that superb that she can just move around the ice to this music and look like a champion the way say Yuka Sato could. But it is early and hopefully this program will build.

Debrah
10-03-2011, 09:00 PM
Rochette and Buttle are like fine wine, their performing skills just keep getting better with age...It's nice to be reminded of what skating with great choreo, performed with emotion, intensity of focus, and true attention to detail is really all about. Athleticism married to artisty. Some will argue that the jumps have been dumbed down from their competitive days, but in point of fact I barely noticed as both the wonderful skater's moved me with their beautiful nuanced performances, any element miscues were covered well and in point of fact there was a lot of substance delivered, despite a few less quads and triples! I'll take the retired Buttle and Rochette's skating, over most of what the rest of the eligible still competitive field delivered at the Japan open. No one else thrilled me quite the way Buttle and Rochette did and that includes most of the new wunderkins who were not error free either, as it is early in the season, and frankly when the still competitve skater's mess up there is little left to watch in the dumbed down, mostly empty programs so the can execute all the big ticket items,so when they do mess up, what's left to watch? Gosh, I wish they would both unretire, or skate more often in shows where I could enjoy their performances. Thank god for the internet and video clips! I hear there is a team oly medal event in Sochi, perhaps if we all wished hard enough and clicked our heels 3 times, ya never know what this N.A team win, may inspire down the road.

There were a couple of other exceptions of course, most notably Chan, who even with his jump errors was still quite sublime overall and there is still much being delivered that is very, very watchable.

Chan again managed to have big ticket elements, and still do complex sophisticated choreo- so Kudo's to him! Despite his 3 jump errors which his detractor's always use to justify their hate for cop and him, that seemingly still have lots of folks panties in a twist again here on FSU - I say bah, humbug, he still skated better than the rest of the men did and he was up so fast anyway it barely disrupted anything, so it's not like he robbed anyone!

The young Russian Plushy clone has far to go before he is at the same overall skill level as Chan, but the promising Gachinsky does have excellent jumping skills, so he is a legitimate threat, at least while Chan shows some summer jump rust. OTH, I think Chan's performance skills and other elements have actually improved over the summer, he is skating with a new level of maturity, musicality, and much more emotional connection. I really like this new program, I feel it is one that that will only build over the course of the season. I feel it will become a tour de force by time worlds roll around, when I expect Chan will have solved his jump issues. A healthy, well prepared, fully trained Chan will be tough to beat. Not impossible, but very very tough, cuz he now knows esp after breaking 3 world records, that he can indeed skate well under pressure. There are still a few men competing this comming season that also know how to win world and olympic medals, along with a few young guns who are very hungry and also quite talented who still believe in posibilities, so it should be great fun to watch the season unfold...Need I remind y'a'll that ice is slippery...

Congrats to the entire N.A. Team, it was a great effort. From Aliss's spins and gentle grace, to practically everything else the Candian skaters did at the Japan open that thrilled me as a skating fan, and skating by the retired folk that gave me chills in a good way, esp in terms of actual artistry and display of all around well balanced skating skills. These 3 CDN skater's in my mind were/are vastly superior at interpreting complex choreo, skating to music, not through it, while executing jumps, spins, elements, etc, than the rest of the field at the Japan open was from the clips on you tube I have watched, at least in this specific moment in time, IMO. There are still a few clips I have not seen yet, but I doubt I'll change my mind much.

Dai, Taka and Miki rest of Japanese team just did not have their usual fire at this competition. After all the country of Japan has been through this past year, the still on going storm threats and aftershocks, did we really expect them to be in usual winning competitive form? The fact they showed up to skate at all, was a big win in my mind. I can't imagine what training conditions must be like still, and the post traumatic stress from all the loss of life, etc, changes in living and training conditions, lots of extra demands on skater's time to help rebuild morale, raise money, etc., I don't think they lost any fans from not performing well at the 2011 Japan open, but I bet they made a few new ones, perhaps just because they proved just how human they are and on the bright side there is no other way than up from a last place finish!

As for the Euro team there is a lot to be very proud about and the potential for growth till Sochi and well beyond if the results here and on JR GP is any indicator, is something we skating fans can all look forward to. I fully expect to see a Russian gal on the Sochi podium, but which one will it be?

casken
10-03-2011, 09:08 PM
Oh, wow, Ando's LP is awful. :scream:

Even skated all out, I can't see this working.

kwanatic
10-03-2011, 09:15 PM
Liza, great jumps... but her weird arm usage, her hunched shoulders, that wretched layback, the ugly spiral, and her bent leg in her spins? Calm down people, she's got a LONG way to go. :P

Suzuki: :rollin: Loved her program, she was the highlight for me.

There is something about Liza T's posture that bothers me a bit...maybe it is her shoulders and the way she holds her arms? IDK, but that sounds about right. I think her use of her wrists and arms in her programs is interesting, mainly b/c it's so noticeable. I don't usually notice wrists and hands when people skate...it's kind of signature to her and a bit weird. I do hope she works on that posture though...that will give her better lines--yet another reason why I prefer Adelina: gorgeous lines and posture...:swoon:

And yeah, Liza T's layback is probably the weakest element in her skating...and that includes when her back wasn't injured/hurt. There's no lay back or even lean; more like a twist and tilt to the side. :lol: Hopefully she'll work on that for the future...that awful angled leg too. But then again, that can be said for most of the Russian girls. I think Julia Lipnitskaia has the best layback of all of them...wait, I'd say Ksenia's is the best just b/c she goes for a more classic position with an extended leg. But Julia's has a great back position, a lot of speed and that ridiculous Biellmann position at the end...very impressive.

And ITA...Akiko was amazing! :rollin:

kwanatic
10-03-2011, 09:19 PM
Oh, wow, Ando's LP is awful. :scream:

Even skated all out, I can't see this working.

The program was rather flat (big shock) but I actually really like the music. I think with the right choreographer and skater, this could be made into a really great program. You could tell she didn't want to be there. During a few of the other clips of skaters, they showed Miki backstage; she look like she wanted to puke...and right before she took her place to begin, she still looked terrified.

I felt pretty bad for her...:wideeyes: That was tough to watch...

giselle23
10-03-2011, 09:34 PM
Shizuka skated before Irina's performance (Irina skated last in the final flight) ... so she still had to go out and skate the performance without knowing what Irina was going to do.

I think Shizuka was skating for a silver medal. When Irina faltered, Shizuka ended up with the gold. Good for her!

allezfred
10-03-2011, 09:39 PM
Dai, Taka and Miki rest of Japanese team just did not have their usual fire at this competition. After all the country of Japan has been through this past year, the still on going storm threats and aftershocks, did we really expect them to be in usual winning competitive form?

Err, yes? :shuffle:


The fact they showed up to skate at all, was a big win in my mind. I can't imagine what training conditions must be like still,

None of the above three train in an area affected by the tsunami/earthquake. Japan is a big country innit. As for their training conditions, well they are better than 99% of skaters worldwide.

Besides the fact that Akiko Suzuki skated well kind of dents your theory. ;)

Now if you had been talking about someone like Yuzuru Hanyu who rink and home were affected by the disaster, you might have had a point....

os168
10-03-2011, 09:44 PM
I have no idea where Alissa is trying to take this program. It accentuates her lack of speed, transitions, and stalking of her jumps. Her SS are not that superb that she can just move around the ice to this music and look like a champion the way say Yuka Sato could. But it is early and hopefully this program will build.

I think it is the other way round.

The team probably recognize Alissa doesn't have much speed to begin with so they decide to find a piece of music that justify/hide her lack of speed hence provided her breathing space to focus on the upgraded technical content. (Just like The Mission had been selected to hide Miki Ando's lack of musicality and interpretation)

At slower and more comfortable speed, it will enable Alissa to remain graceful, able be to hold positions better and avoid making critical mistakes early on that tends to have a knock on effect on the rest of her performance. (Although she seemed to have overcome this mental game recently.)

It seem to me the COP reward system have been cracked now and is time for some revision. Music choices are capable of hide skater's deficiency, as well as enhances their best qualities. Usually if the skater stuck doing the same old program, it is fair to be suspicious. They are either playing safe, got something to hide, or just plain lazy.

I wish they would give out bonuses for better constructed programs and for things like ice coverage, speed, things that are not marked in tangible terms (human judgement) currently but should be valid measurement towards to the quality, the risks and the difficulty of a performance. Otherwise I envision we will continue to see the trend of more lovely slow unoffensive soft music programs devoid of interesting choreography (why bother wasting energy), increasing difficulties with more falls and little incentive to do something beyond that.

sk9tingfan
10-03-2011, 09:59 PM
At slower and more comfortable speed, it will enable Alissa to remain graceful, able be to hold positions better and avoid making critical mistakes early on that tends to have a knock on effect on the rest of her performance. (Although she seemed to have overcome this mental game recently.)

I can't help but think of Johnny Weir's gorgeous SP several years ago with it's exquisite footwork sequences and relatively few if any deficits to hide.

peibeck
10-03-2011, 10:16 PM
I wish they would give out bonuses for better constructed programs and for things like ice coverage, speed, things that are not marked in tangible terms (human judgement) currently but should be valid measurement towards to the quality, the risks and the difficulty of a performance.

Well these should reflect in the PCS under skating skills, transitions, and choreography. :shuffle:

Rafter
10-03-2011, 10:19 PM
Well these should reflect in the PCS under skating skills, transitions, and choreography. :shuffle:

Not according to the Chan bashers/haters!!

os168
10-03-2011, 10:22 PM
Well these should reflect in the PCS under skating skills, transitions, and choreography. :shuffle:

But accuracy? Human judgement are so limited when other factors come to play :rolleyes: I could use example of Miki's program last year but it is better not to go there :D

BTW this is the most recent news released by International Figure Skating Magazine (sorry if it has been posted already),


Elina Paasonen reports that Miki Ando told the press at the Japan Open that she will not compete at all this season.

No worlds then... Come on Akiko, it is your turn?

peibeck
10-03-2011, 10:35 PM
os168, I agree the PCS are not used always used accurately. I was trying to point out where those skills and program construction problems should be addressed in the scoring.

Japanfan
10-03-2011, 10:40 PM
Love Chan's program, think it's the best LP he's ever had (best costume too). Way way better than Phantom. It's definitely a more mature look for him and you can really see his ballet training in the program. I agree with the poster who said his arms and hand movement have improved. What is Johnny going to criticize now that his "starfish" hands are gone? :lol:

I agree that it's a more mature look from him but am not yet sold on the program - need to wait and see how it develops.

I thought '4 Seasons' and 'Phantom' were both perfect for Patrick his because they are dramatic and have clear high points. As such, they highlight his brilliant skating skills and mask his weaknesses (not the best in terms of performance ability and musicality). 'Aranjuez' is a softer and more subtle piece of music which needs nuance and fluidity in terms of movement. Patrick is still growing as a performer and skater, and appears to thrive on challenge, so I hope to see him grow into the program.

os168
10-03-2011, 10:56 PM
os168, I agree the PCS are not used always used accurately. I was trying to point out where those skills and program construction problems should be addressed in the scoring.

Ah sorry for mistaken your post peibeck.

It is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I've always wonder if they can use technologies to aid to measure things like coverage, distance, speed, trajectory that can provide useful stats / performance indicators. Especially compare with the skater's previous performances/history etc. As fan of skating, these can makes fascinating stats (totally satisfy the geeky part of the sport.) although does make manipulating result a bit more difficult *cough*.

While no skaters are the same, there will always be those who would spend more effort to fully realised a great program with added difficulties, risks and better presentation. They should be awarded, at the moment they are merely acknowledge at elementary level, and I'd argue not rewarded enough for the amount of effort and risks involved.