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bek
10-03-2011, 06:21 AM
What does this say to me? This confirms the hypothesis that TES and PCS have very little relation. Her two worst scores gave her more PCS than TES. You could have a splatfest but still achieve in the PCS department. Also, her PCS tends to stay around the same place (there's a wide margin, but I notice her scores stay within a very close range when you look at the individual numbers)-I think this may prove another hypothesis: the judges may be unintentionally biased towards certain skaters and providing them with an inadvertent advantage or disadvantage in the PCS department. This is VERY hypothetical, but the fact that her unfactored PCS (which I intentionally left out, mostly because I didn't want to create errors) seems to be pretty close, individual scores-wise, has me thinking.

I have no clue if anyone was interested in that, but I did it to try to see whether I could come up with some information as to why Chan gets high PCS across the board, and I think I may have come up with some ideas

I don't think you can compare Patrick to someone like Flatt or Ten because Flatt never gets great PCS. I think it would be wiser to compare him to Asada, or to Kozuka. Who sometimes now can get top PCS and I think you'll find that their PCS DO go down from high high to a bit lower when they skate poorly.

doubleflutz
10-03-2011, 06:25 AM
You realize every other dude in the Japan Open wiped the ice with his ass at least once, right? Except for JButt, who... did a whole bunch of double, and maybe Florent, who I haven't seen yet -- anyone have video? But there was a pretty high butt:ice ratio all around. Everyone else fell on their quads and weren't doing them in combination anyway, and Patrick was the only one with a second 3-3. Artur and Patrick were definitely the class of the field in terms of difficulty, and I still think Patrick had the harder program overall.

Zemgirl
10-03-2011, 06:25 AM
So how many people whining about Patrick's PCS when he falls three times also get annoyed when Laura and Carolina get held up with PCS despite doing 1980s jump content? :rolleyes: It's not actually the way PCS is supposed to work, but in terms of what all the men at the JO stood up on, Patrick had the hardest jump content except for Gachinski. He's really improved the quality of his jumps, too. It's not just the 4T-3T and the 3-1.5-3. They're higher, smoother, and have much better landings than they used to. Still have lots of difficult entries, although not as much as POTO. Except for the 3A, his technique has improved so much since Vancouver. He really is one of the best jumpers right now, doing the hardest programs. So if it's not okay to give out good PCS when skaters barely pass muster technically, just because they do a lot of doubles or only very easy triples, shouldn't skaters who are doing some of the hardest content have that reflected in the PCS? A choreographically appropriate 4T-3T has a bigger impact than a choreographically appropriate 2A, right?
Is commenting about Chan's content and scores necessarily "whining"? I think most of the posters here, both fans and otherwise, are having a discussion, not a whining session.

As a general rule, having easier jump content does not interrupt the program; unless a skater goes into woe is me mode and is out of the performance, it doesn't impact the program's flow and doesn't result in breaks in which the skater is trying to get back into the program rather than performing the choreography and interpreting the music. Falls are far more likely to do those things. Having not seen Chan's LP, I can't comment on whether his falls had an adverse effect on these program components; however, I have seen the Kostner and Lepisto programs to which you refer, and I don't see any reason their PCS had to suffer; those two don't often let mistakes on the jumps affect the rest of the program. In Kostner's case this past season, the easier content was planned (injury) so there was no reason for it to interrupt the programs. And it's worth mentioning that they are not getting Chan-level PCS, and that Kostner especially has finished way down in the standings when she didn't do well (e.g. 2009 Worlds, the Olympics).

Having difficult jump content, good height on the jumps and good landings is most certainly not something that PCS is supposed to measure; that's what TES is for. Difficult jump entries are another matter (and personally, it annoys me that these are rewarded multiple times, in both GOE and PCS) but not the rest. So Chan landing a 4T is irrelevant to his PCS, or at least it should be. Same goes for any other skater.

Speaking of Kostner - IMO, she's been getting better material from Nichol than most if not all of Lori's clients, Chan included. I wonder why that is.

jl22aries
10-03-2011, 06:30 AM
A lot of it sounds like mean spirited, vindictive, personalized, negative, party ruining whining to me.

Take it easy guys. These forums at their very best should CONNECT people. Let's be the best version of ourselves, shall we?

MANNERS.

bek
10-03-2011, 06:31 AM
And I want to point out its not so much Chan's PCS dropping as its his PCS in relation to his competitors. When Asada's falling all over the place she's not given an 8 point PCS lead over the reigning world bronze medalist. As much as I may question Artur's bronze... {The judges are more than willing to let someone like Ando win in that case.} But Not. With. Patrick. With four falls in the competition, Patrick's beating good skaters like Oda, and only lost to Verner with a technicality. . Then there's the PCS difference at Worlds between him and Kozuka. That's the real focus of the anger. Perhaps the PCS thing when he skates clean is one thing, but the multiple fall thing is just....

doubleflutz
10-03-2011, 06:38 AM
Then there's the PCS difference at Worlds between him and Kozuka. That's the real focus of the anger.

So you're not actually talking about the Japan Open? His scores at JO were pretty justified, from what I've seen (need Florent video argh!) I think SC last year was a travesty, but that doesn't mean that every single time Patrick wins with falls it's automatically a crime on the same level, or even wrong/incorrect judging. That's not logic, that's just holding a grudge.

bek
10-03-2011, 06:41 AM
So you're not actually talking about the Japan Open? His scores at JO were pretty justified, from what I've seen (need Florent video argh!) I think SC last year was a travesty, but that doesn't mean that every single time Patrick wins with falls it's automatically a crime on the same level, or even wrong/incorrect judging. That's not logic, that's just holding a grudge.

We aren't talking about Patrick winning with one fall, we are talking about 3 falls. Not sure if I disagree with him over Artur. But I'm sorry if Patrick is given those kind of PCS, why shouldn't Daisuke too. I actually liked Daisukes' program/performance interpertation better. And while he was messy he had less glaring errors. And while I don't necessarily love Artur, and I don't necessarily think Artur should altogether have higher PCS than Chan. I DO think maybe his P/E marks SHOULD have been higher. It at the very least should have been closer.

And its not just Patrick I complain about. I've complained about Daisuke and Lambiel getting rewarded for messy programs too. Its not just Chan.

doubleflutz
10-03-2011, 06:43 AM
Why doesn't Russian FSA pay someone like Baiul to get in there and teach these girls how to move? I'm tired of the Tut/Slut Walk Like an Egyptian hands and arms. Oksana Baiul was so much better than that.

She couldn't skate, though, and Irina and Liza both can. Irina's skating skills have been criminally underrated for years. I'm sorry, in my heart of hearts I am happy she beat Nancy Kerrigan, but an Olympic Champion who only does 3-turns is a freaking disgrace.

bek
10-03-2011, 06:48 AM
She couldn't skate, though, and Irina and Liza both can. Irina's skating skills have been criminally underrated for years. I'm sorry, in my heart of hearts I am happy she beat Nancy Kerrigan, but an Olympic Champion who only does 3-turns is a freaking disgrace.

I don't get the comparisions between Liza and Irina to be frank. I think Liza is far more graceful than Irina ever was. A couple of her hand movement choices I'm not so sure about (but are growing on me). But I don't think Liza as a skater is like Irina.

Louise
10-03-2011, 06:50 AM
I don't think you can compare Patrick to someone like Flatt or Ten because Flatt never gets great PCS. I think it would be wiser to compare him to Asada, or to Kozuka. Who sometimes now can get top PCS and I think you'll find that their PCS DO go down from high high to a bit lower when they skate poorly.

I completely agree, Bek. I am mad about Kozuka's skills. I actually got his artistry several years ago, even before he won Skate America before my eyes back in -08?

I don't want to be verbose, but I think think the above average skating fan recognizes good skating skills. And in their head they can conceivably put a one fall or two fall Skating God/dess above a Timmy Goebel or that quadster from Canada with nothing else or a Ludmila (Nellie) Nelidina.

HOWEVER, those same intellectual skating fans see such a disconnect when someone can fall three or four times (out of what 7 jumping passes?????) and yet win on the PCS. I would move that a fall is a fall, worth ZERO, except for -3 on the TES score. No credit for a quad fall, or a 2axel fall, all -3. I would give credit for an underrotated 3 or 4 (within the 75% rule now) as long as they stand up on it.

Falls or threefoots need to be punished with ZERO minus three in credit. When someone says to me (I pretend to not have any skating knowledge) that he fell so much he should have skid marks on his underpants like a college freshman who never bathes, well, what's the answer? I agree. PChan just won with 3 very bad falls and 9's in PCS. Good luck sorting that one out. I'm glad I'm not a judge dealing with a current World Champ falling all over the place yet feeling forced to give him marks.

doubleflutz
10-03-2011, 06:50 AM
We aren't talking about Patrick winning with one fall, we are talking about 3 falls. Not sure if I disagree with him over Artur. But I'm sorry if Patrick is given those kind of PCS, why shouldn't Daisuke too. I actually liked Daisukes' program/performance interpertation better. And while he was messy he had less glaring errors.

He also had far fewer transitions and one-foot skating/turns at speed, really didn't show his usual speed or edge quality at all, and didn't make very good use of the ice. I liked the program a lot, better than Patrick's, but that's because I love Daisuke, not because it was a better program.


And while I don't necessarily love Artur, and I don't necessarily think Artur should altogether have higher PCS than Chan. I DO think maybe his P/E marks SHOULD have been higher.

I actually agree with that, although I think he's being overmarked in SS right now. Maybe it's just because I've never seen him live and there's some kind of optical illusion going on, but it looked like he was just crawling out there. Everyone looked a bit slow, actually, but Artur and Daisuke really stood out for me in that respect.

bek
10-03-2011, 06:53 AM
He also had far fewer transitions and one-foot skating/turns at speed, really didn't show his usual speed or edge quality at all, and didn't make very good use of the ice. I liked the program a lot, better than Patrick's, but that's because I love Daisuke, not because it was a better program.


Yes but Daisuke made better use of his entire body than Chan did. Patrick looked quite stiff for me. Patrick has nice posture but he still felt stiff, I didn't get the feeling that he was expressing the music with his whole body the way Daisuke did.

doubleflutz
10-03-2011, 06:56 AM
I don't get the comparisions between Liza and Irina to be frank. I think Liza is far more graceful than Irina ever was. A couple of her hand movement choices I'm not so sure about (but are growing on me). But I don't think Liza as a skater is like Irina.

Irina was capable of being graceful, damnit. Her Cry of the Forest SP is wonderful. But yeah, every Russian lady who isn't extremely balletic gets compared to Irina, and I don't get it. Alena does remind me a lot of Irina, but it's more body type and energy than anything else. Who Liza reminds me of the most these days is actually Michelle in her Romanza/Aranjuez/Tosca mode. Heresy, I'm sure.

bek
10-03-2011, 07:01 AM
Irina was capable of being graceful, damnit. Her Cry of the Forest SP is wonderful. But yeah, every Russian lady who isn't extremely balletic gets compared to Irina, and I don't get it. Alena does remind me a lot of Irina, but it's more body type and energy than anything else. Who Liza reminds me of the most these days is actually Michelle in her Romanza/Aranjuez/Tosca mode. Heresy, I'm sure.

The Irina I remember was quite sloppy. Liza actually reminds me quite a bit of Yu-na with more of a Russian attitude though. In terms of presentation.

victoriaheidi
10-03-2011, 07:02 AM
I don't think you can compare Patrick to someone like Flatt or Ten because Flatt never gets great PCS. I think it would be wiser to compare him to Asada, or to Kozuka. Who sometimes now can get top PCS and I think you'll find that their PCS DO go down from high high to a bit lower when they skate poorly.

The reason I chose Flatt was because the discussion stemmed from skaters who had both squeaky-clean programs and complete trainwrecks in the same season. Any ideas of someone else who's recently had that kind of season? I'd totally love to do this again; it was actually kind of fun!