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Triple Butz
10-03-2011, 04:37 AM
Liza was fab. :smokin: Very voidy, very diva-ish. I really enjoyed the fast farts. She's improved in presentation a lot. And those jumps are gorgeous.

Alissa's 3-3 attempt wasn't bad at ALL! It's hard to see the cheat because of the camera angle, but I think she should continue to work at it. The program is a little undercooked for me at this point, but it's still I think it has potential and should improve with mileage. She still moves beautifully.

Suzuki was :kickass: She has such great skating skills. I really want to see her back on the Japanese World Team this season.

I really, really, REALLY want to like Chan's program - but it just seems so "meh" to me. I don't think he deserves that high in P/E, CH, IN. Sorry...
I know this is a typo, but...:rofl:

Louise
10-03-2011, 04:52 AM
I really, really, REALLY want to like Chan's program - but it just seems so "meh" to me. I don't think he deserves that high in P/E, CH, IN. Sorry...

Hmmmm. I am a fan of Chan (and Abbott and Takashi and Kozuka), but when someone falls THREE times and the PCS don't reflect that, well, I'm just stunned. Stunned. Maybe not really since I've been used to this since 1976, but still, what's the point? I understand beneath an athelete's bad performance might lie tip top world class everything else, but when you give up your program to three falls, just throw it AWAY, take your lumps and do better the next competition. The judges should reflect that in their scores.

I'm feeling the 'Kostner effect' and now starting to notice his sitspins aren't all that low, his camel is poorly positioned, and a hundred other problems that stand out now that he's routinely falling two and three times a program and getting top PCS. It's a sad state. If he were to routinely make the podium and bronze with three falls, in my head I would know it's because everything else is SOOOOO good. But for him to WIN GOLD with all of his falls, something is just not right. It stinks in suburbia.

mrinalini
10-03-2011, 05:02 AM
Meh about Alissa and Patrick. Alissa moves beautifully, as usual, but this program is nothing new for her, really. I'll bet her 3-3 will be scaled down to a 3-2 by the time the GP gets underway. At least she picked relatively somber music this time around, though, and if she can inject more drama into her movements rather than coasting along with her standard SWP style, I think this program could eventually work for her.

Patrick's 'Aranjuez' can't touch Kwan's 2003 Nats version, IMO (and yes, I'm aware that his program must be more complex and has more transitions and what not). I'm awed by his SS, but again as with Alissa, I don't think he brings anything new to the table with this LP. If he injects more energy and emotion near the end of the program when the music swells, I think this LP could be much better.

Tuktamysheva has fab jumps, and I love how she really holds out the landings as if to show just how cleanly she can do them! But yes, she's got a fug layback and that spiral is a carbon copy of Slutskaya's which isn't a good thing. The footwork in the middle section could be faster and less juniorish; the music cut from the fast to the slow part could be less abrupt, too. Still, I'll eat my hat if a Russian lady isn't crowned OC in Sochi.



I really enjoyed the fast farts.

:lol:

jl22aries
10-03-2011, 05:05 AM
Patrick - Is it just me or is he using his arms much, much better this season? I mostly like the program, but sometimes it seemed like he was skating to a completely different cut of the music, one that was busier? It's very spare, and some of the arm movements in the first 1/3rd seem to come out of nowhere. It's not that he's off the beat or the melody, there is nothing going on when he does them. It's odd. This one probably needs a rewatch. I like the final step sequence, it's the first time that I really felt like he was dancing it.


Oh it was the first thing I noticed too! His soft hands are SO much lovelier. I think Aranjuez suits him beautifully. I can see why they chose it. Can't wait to see him and the program develop as the season progresses.

And I was delightfully surprised to watch his version of Aranjuez and actually find it fresh - didn't associate it with previous interpretations of the program. He has redefined the story and music for himself. "Definitive", as someone else wrote earlier, I can agree with!

Jenna
10-03-2011, 05:06 AM
I know this is a typo, but...:rofl:


:lol:

Oh dear! :rofl:

bek
10-03-2011, 05:13 AM
Tuktamysheva has fab jumps, and I love how she really holds out the landings as if to show just how cleanly she can do them! But yes, she's got a fug layback and that spiral is a carbon copy of Slutskaya's which isn't a good thing. The footwork in the middle section could be faster and less juniorish; the music cut from the fast to the slow part could be less abrupt, too. Still, I'll eat my hat if a Russian lady isn't crowned OC in Sochi.

At this point, I think the Russians with Adelina, Elizaveta, and Julia could potentially sweep the Olympic podium. Of course there are a couple of US girls and Japanese girls (not to mention Kim) who could play spoiler. And whether the judges would let it happen is anotehr thing. But at this point Russia's Junior ladies have to be the real envy of everyone else. What I like about these three is all of them have the potential to be complete skaters.

Triple Butz
10-03-2011, 05:15 AM
Patrick's 'Aranjuez' can't touch Kwan's 2003 Nats version, IMO (and yes, I'm aware that his program must be more complex and has more transitions and what not). I'm awed by his SS, but again as with Alissa, I don't think he brings anything new to the table with this LP. If he injects more energy and emotion near the end of the program when the music swells, I think this LP could be much better.


I'm not a fan of Chan's LP (hello, emotion? are you there?) and love Kwan's but I'm surprised to see so many comparisons. The latin/classical violin fusion version that Kwan used is nothing like the original. Of course the melody is the same, but the uptempo and the arrangement make it more fun and joyful than the reflective state of mind in the sweeping orchestral tuttis of the guitar concerto.

jl22aries
10-03-2011, 05:48 AM
Jeffrey ROCKS. Like buttah. I looove how his entire body moves. Watching his skate, I was making swoony noises, and kept thinking now that, THAT is a rare special kind of skater and I've been missing it! Those step sequences are so creative. Must. Re. Watch. And he's one upped the version he skated to as an amateur.

Kozuka's music is really wonderful. It's the first time I have heard it. Any time a skater brings a more original piece of music, it's like they've thrown nuggets to the hungry fanatics.

Elizaveta's jump landings are gorgeous. It makes so much aesthetic difference when toes are pointed.

Vash01
10-03-2011, 05:51 AM
At this point, I think the Russians with Adelina, Elizaveta, and Julia could potentially sweep the Olympic podium. Of course there are a couple of US girls and Japanese girls (not to mention Kim) who could play spoiler. And whether the judges would let it happen is anotehr thing. But at this point Russia's Junior ladies have to be the real envy of everyone else. What I like about these three is all of them have the potential to be complete skaters.

It's way too early to make those predictions. Haven't we seen numerous young skaters from the junior ranks that never made it big as seniors?

bek
10-03-2011, 05:52 AM
It's way too early to make those predictions. Haven't we seen numerous young skaters from the junior ranks that never made it big as seniors?

Well obviously. I'm not sure the judges would let it happen and the US has some talented kids like Hicks as well. Not to mention Asada may be back to her old form...

Of the three Russians I'm actually the least sold on Julia for some reason.

doubleflutz
10-03-2011, 06:06 AM
So how many people whining about Patrick's PCS when he falls three times also get annoyed when Laura and Carolina get held up with PCS despite doing 1980s jump content? :rolleyes: It's not actually the way PCS is supposed to work, but in terms of what all the men at the JO stood up on, Patrick had the hardest jump content except for Gachinski. He's really improved the quality of his jumps, too. It's not just the 4T-3T and the 3-1.5-3. They're higher, smoother, and have much better landings than they used to. Still have lots of difficult entries, although not as much as POTO. Except for the 3A, his technique has improved so much since Vancouver. He really is one of the best jumpers right now, doing the hardest programs. So if it's not okay to give out good PCS when skaters barely pass muster technically, just because they do a lot of doubles or only very easy triples, shouldn't skaters who are doing some of the hardest content have that reflected in the PCS? A choreographically appropriate 4T-3T has a bigger impact than a choreographically appropriate 2A, right?

bek
10-03-2011, 06:15 AM
So how many people whining about Patrick's PCS when he falls three times also get annoyed when Laura and Carolina get held up with PCS despite doing 1980s jump content? :rolleyes: It's not actually the way PCS is supposed to work, but in terms of what all the men at the JO stood up on, Patrick had the hardest jump content except for Gachinski. He's really improved the quality of his jumps, too. It's not just the 4T-3T and the 3-1.5-3. They're higher, smoother, and have much better landings than they used to. Still have lots of difficult entries, although not as much as POTO. Except for the 3A, his technique has improved so much since Vancouver. He really is one of the best jumpers right now, doing the hardest programs. So if it's not okay to give out good PCS when skaters barely pass muster technically, just because they do a lot of doubles or only very easy triples, shouldn't skaters who are doing some of the hardest content have that reflected in the PCS? A choreographically appropriate 4T-3T has a bigger impact than a choreographically appropriate 2A, right?

:rolleyes: I think people want a balance between hard content and actually executing the content well. As for the hardest jump content its not like Patrick was the ONLY guy to attempt a quad. And sure he attempted two and landed one, but also attempted only one triple axel whereas the others normally attempt 2 triple axels.

Its not like Patrick's top competitors were only attempting doubles. And Artur actually executed more jumps correctly than Chan did.

Louise
10-03-2011, 06:16 AM
I've also noticed way too much reverence to Slutskaya in Tut's P/E. I suppose that is natural, except I thought that Slut was totally overrated and never deserving of any of her marks (she won 2005 LP hands down but everyone else was terrible) God, why can't these Russian girls try to be like OKSANA? With 3/3's and 8 trips/program. Why emulate Slutskaya? All those stupid arm and hand things she did for 'artistry'? GMAFB.

Why doesn't Russian FSA pay someone like Baiul to get in there and teach these girls how to move? I'm tired of the Tut/Slut Walk Like an Egyptian hands and arms. Oksana Baiul was so much better than that. Take the bottle away from her for a day, and she'd show you something worth comitting to celluloid.

victoriaheidi
10-03-2011, 06:19 AM
Ok, now you've got me curious. When I finish my work, I'm going to give this a shot.

Ok, I decided to do Flatt. My reasoning for choosing Flatt is that she literally had everything last season-she earned her highest LP score on record and simultaneously earned the lowest LP score of any competitor at the JGP/GP Final-ever.

I did this mostly because I'm interested in the subject (I just had a midterm on content analysis, and I would LOVE to do a major content analysis on skating. I think it would be a fascinating subject to explore), and because I was curious to see if TES had any bearing on PCS with regards to a skater who isn't usually given much help by the international judges. Ideally, I would have been able to do this with more skaters; heck, maybe I will. I was just wondering. Also, I'm sticking to factored PCS because I just think that unfactored PCS leaves too much room for me to screw up the math and, by association, give us completely inaccurate views.

My only request is that we not turn this into a Flatt thread. I wish I'd been able to think of more skaters with crazy ups and downs last season (I can't think of many more people who had the crazy ups and downs of Flatt), but I couldn't, so let's just use this to try to look at the Chan situation, not to hate on Flatt, ok? Thank you.

NHK Trophy:
Rank in LP: 1
Starting Number: 10 (of 12)
Classification: clean program (two underrotations)
TSS: 107.35
TES: 54.87
PCS (factored): 52.48

Skate America:
Rank in LP: 1
Starting Number: 9 (of 12)
Classification: clean-ish program (two underrotations)
TSS: 111.84
TES: 57.85
PCS (factored): 53.99

Grand Prix Final:
Rank in LP: 6
Starting Number: 1 (of 6)
Classification: disaster (four underrotations; one fall; multiple mistakes on spins/steps)
TSS: 82.38
TES: 36.47
PCS (factored): 46.91

Four Continents Championships:
Rank in LP: 4
Starting Number: 19 (of 24)
Classification: best performance of the season/personal best LP score (one underrotation)
TSS: 118.08
TES: 60.94
PCS (factored): 57.14

Worlds:
Rank in LP: 14
Starting Number: 18 (of 24)
Classification: :shuffle: (one underrotation; very watered-down technical content)
TSS: 97.39
TES: 45.45
PCS (factored): 51.94

What does this say to me? This confirms the hypothesis that TES and PCS have very little relation. Her two worst scores gave her more PCS than TES. You could have a splatfest but still achieve in the PCS department. Also, her PCS tends to stay around the same place (there's a wide margin, but I notice her scores stay within a very close range when you look at the individual numbers)-I think this may prove another hypothesis: the judges may be unintentionally biased towards certain skaters and providing them with an inadvertent advantage or disadvantage in the PCS department. This is VERY hypothetical, but the fact that her unfactored PCS (which I intentionally left out, mostly because I didn't want to create errors) seems to be pretty close, individual scores-wise, has me thinking.

I have no clue if anyone was interested in that, but I did it to try to see whether I could come up with some information as to why Chan gets high PCS across the board, and I think I may have come up with some ideas.

Louise
10-03-2011, 06:21 AM
So how many people whining about Patrick's PCS when he falls three times also get annoyed when Laura and Carolina get held up with PCS despite doing 1980s jump content? :rolleyes:

Umm, dear, why the rolleyes emoticon? You are either way too clueless about how many think about this crazy system where a four fall Chan wins or a totally clueless Kostner places over better cleaner skaters. What's your beef? I would bet that most figure skating fans wants the best skater ON THAT NIGHT to win. He might not have Chan's nor Kostner's 'intangibles' but actually puts it out there for the world to see.

Can I give a :rolleyes: to the rolleyes given by doubleflutz? S/he deserves it.