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millipied
10-03-2011, 12:39 AM
God, I hate the Aranujez and anyone who skates to it. Enough already.
I also hate the fact that this specific Chan skate yet again landed at at the top spot. Enough already.

Tuktamusheva gets better and better.

VarBar
10-03-2011, 12:51 AM
Patrick's new FS programs just gave me chills even though it wasn't his best jumpwise. His falls didn't bother me at all. He gets up so quickly and goes right back to the program. His 4-3, steps, and spins were amazing as usual. Aranjues is kind of overused music but after seeing it, I could understand why he and Lori has chosen it. It's the kind of music that brings out his emotions and complements the great qualities he has. If the five components means presentation, interpretation, skating skills, choreo, and skating skills, I'd say it was all there. Patrick was in his own league. I even saw some improvements from the last season. Such an amazing guy:)

I've just seen his Concierto and I fully agree with you, the choreography and his skating are just mesmerizing.

Dionysus
10-03-2011, 12:52 AM
Patrick's PCS is above my comprehension/ It beats me... Judges do it through inertia/ how long? several season until they get tired.

Even One fall means dwindling and is let loose on lessening points PSC

smarts1
10-03-2011, 12:55 AM
Leonova's with Morozov now?!?!?!?! When did that happen?

Proustable
10-03-2011, 01:08 AM
aftershocks, here's an example from sk9tingfan


Yet again, Chan falls three times in a program and get 9's for skating skills. I still argue that if you fall that many times, that some of your skating skills are arguable. Other skaters would be crucified in the PCS for that. (emphasis mine)

Now, is there an example of a skater getting crucified in Skating Skills for multiple falls as relative to when they skate clean? I know - you're not interested in the actual math of it all, but is there? There must be, after all, people keep mentioning it as if it's truth. But I find at least some evidence suggesting otherwise. But lets double check (and yeah, I posted some of these numbers already)

2010/2011 Season

Kanako Murakami
NHK LP (three falls): 6.75
SA LP (no falls): 7.07

So she was crucified a whole third of a point for three falls, so roughly 0.1 per fall.

Jeremy Abbott
NHK LP (no falls): 7.79
CoR LP (two falls): 7.89

So falling, from Jeremy, actually demonstrates BETTER skating skills.

Daisuke Takakashi:
SA LP (one fall): 8.46
GPF LP (two falls): 8.32

Crucifiction: -0.13/fall

Nobunari Oda
GPF LP (two falls): 8.14
SA LP (one fall): 8.29
Worlds LP (no falls): 8.29

The difference between two falls and none is a whopping 0.075/fall. Apparently, Oda has a get one fall free in his SS.

Denis Ten
SA LP (five falls): 6.43
NHK LP (three falls): 6.25

Patrick Chan
CoR LP (three falls): 8.50
SC LP (one fall): 8.54
GPF LP (no falls): 8.71
Worlds LP (no falls): 9.25

To me, this is a pretty clear statement that the judges are instructed not to consider falls on elements as part of PCS (you can go through the rest of the scores and find similar patterns).

Here's the thing, aftershocks. I love Patrick Chan's skating, but I hate that he can win with skates like this. I hate that the system thinks this is what skating should be. It shouldn't. I'm fine with a one-fall skate beating a no-fall skate. When we're talking two+ fall differences, well, you'd better be landing quad axels to make up for them. I hate the idea that flawed elements have nothing to do with your impression of the program as a whole, according to the system. That makes absolutely no sense to me.

And yeah, it rather sucks that Chan exemplifies most of the major flaws of COP, because I really do love his skating.

olympic
10-03-2011, 01:52 AM
Watched Alissa's LP here. Lots of potential.

I was slightly distraught by her score, but when I watched the performance, it will be incredible once she cleans up her landings which is doable, although the 3z-3t and 3sal will probably be long-term goals.

The 3z-3t looked much better than I thought it would [Mirai, take note!]

Worst case scenario, she can do 3z-2t at the beginning and just do a solo 3toe where the sal should be [if it comes to that]

MR-FAN
10-03-2011, 02:16 AM
Ok, Just saw Leonova's. Don't like the program at all, but that's no surprise. The step sequence is terrible and does nothing but highlight her mediocre skating skills, but by that point I was so bored I couldn't care less. What I find infuriating and borderline insulting to the judging system is her attempting 3 3-flips knowing one of them would just be called a lutz. She didn't even do a flutz, just 3 flips. All from the same entry, and all off an inside edge. Really? I wish the technical panel had the guts to mark her for 3 flips and give the 3rd 0 points. LAME. (nice 3-3 thought!)

And Suzuki... :swoon: What a joy that was! My favorite LP of hers EVER.

shan
10-03-2011, 02:47 AM
I just watched some videos.

I really enjoyed Liza, more than I ever have. She has things to improve, but loads of potential!

I think Alissa is in the beginning stages of what could be a great LP. It's definitely a work in progress, but I can see the potential of what could be w/ time!

I'm meh on Patrick Chan. I watch his programs every season hoping to be moved and see what everyone else sees, but I find him beyond boring. He is watchable b/c of his amazing skating skills. I enjoy his speed and smoothness. But the choreography to this music is :huh:

os168
10-03-2011, 02:52 AM
Thank you Proustable for the informative post that identified the current system fault perfectly.

Depending on the level playing field du jour, changes in COP will always steer the sport to 'evolve' towards certain directions 'for the good of the sport' (so full of contradiction which I won't even go into). Recent changes had been to encourage the WOW elements (guys for quads, gals for 3:3s,3A), it is inevitable the ones who with the greatest number difficulties will result with the greatest number of errors unless you are some sort of super human being. However, given there had been so much outcries over falls among those at the top, I wonder if they will tweak the system again to reward perfect executed programs rather over difficulty.

Having seen the clips, I can see there's a world of difference from what Patrick were able to bring to the ice despite the 3 falls. I don't think it has affect the other good qualities he was able to bring to the ice despite an overused piece of music that he was in full command throughout. There's an effortless quality to his skate, outstanding smoothness and fluidity, good balance of choreography with much improved artistic expressions in the upper body, and superb edge control compares with Kozuka's efforts which are impressive, but the efforts are visible with room for improvement. You can tell this is a new program for Kozuka and less so with Chan (minus the falls)

Actually I was delightfully surprised Taka picked Nausicaa this year. Gorgeous version of the music edit... I got totally sentimental hearing it (just like the crowd did). It is amongst the most lyrical sentimental epic ost ever from the great Joe Hisaishi (I wonder if they got Joe to record this new version especially for their National Champ, because it sounded totally new to me and modern). I think the music were picked to balance out his macho boyish austere that often lacks the emotional connection with the audience unless he manage to hit all his elements.

Let's face it, Taka is not the most musical skater, especially compare with the like of Daisuke and Hanyu. By attaching this young feminist sentimental music... actually it sort of compensated very well. You can tell just by the crowd's reaction when the main theme comes on, the music totally did its job for him and I friggin love the potential of the program (particular the footstep sequence with the nanana song) but he must hit the notes, be more expressive and skate with freedom!

Proustable
10-03-2011, 03:19 AM
Also, watching Kurt fool around with Kozuka was massively endearing.

aftershocks
10-03-2011, 03:19 AM
Hey Proustable, thanks, I get the points you are making, and I certainly have no argument with your love for Chan’s skating. However, sk9tingfan is not blaming Chan or saying he is “solely responsible” for how the judges tend to give him high scores on PCS, despite falls on jumps. As far as skaters being crucified, that changes with the whims of politics, the seasons, and the new generations of skaters. Weir, e.g., was always a favorite whipping boy, for many different reasons. Obviously, he made a lot of mistakes in his career, and not always on the ice, but he was consistently low-balled on PCS with good skates, to a head-scratching extent (And, please no more anyone about “he lacked transitions.” Sure, sure what a great and convenient excuse and constant refrain, and just as empty and baseless as his many critics feel his programs were). Sixth place at the Olympics, come on! He at least deserved to be in 4th. If he’d at least fairly been in 4th, he would have had no traction with his “politics” argument. But I digress and it doesn’t matter anymore anyway.

I see where you are coming from with your math comparisons, too, Proustable, but it’s a small sample. Even with a larger sampling, I think the only thing it really proves is that CoP is a warped, flawed system instituted in order to protect judges and to pacify the IOC, not to correct flaws in the 6.0 system, and not to judge skaters more fairly. And this assessment is not news. Judges and technical callers have problems with effectively following CoP guidelines too. Please listen to Tim Goebel’s interview with manleywoman on her most recent skatecast. Skaters understand what they are dealing with re skating judging and skating politics because they have grown up with it. None of this is news to them. The 2002 Olympic pairs judging scandal in the minds of Tim and his competitors was like, “Yeah, so what else is new? Can we please get on with our portion of the competition?” Part of Weir’s difficulty with the system, is that he started late as a skater and did not grow up from a very young age competing and learning how to deal with the crap politics of the system. OTOH, Weir probably never would have conformed in any case.

I don’t think your math exercise is a clear statement of anything. Okay, the judges don’t consider falls when scoring on PCS, and if that’s the case, it makes no sense to me either. Definitely not all judges are corrupt, probably most try to follow the rules, such as they exist. Honestly, though, it all adds up to confusion, manipulation based on politics, and generally some semblance in the long run of placements usually falling out where they fairly probably should be, minus one or two, or three, or four, maybe five placements (and depending on whether the competition is of high quality or a splatfest). Season’s Best? Who Cares? I trust my eyes and my own sensibilities! The skaters trust their coaches, their families, their hard work practicing and training, their repetitive run-throughs, their warm-ups, their personal triumphs, the beat of their hearts, and the joyful feeling of flight that brought them to the sport in the first place.

Aussie Willy
10-03-2011, 03:31 AM
To me, this is a pretty clear statement that the judges are instructed not to consider falls on elements as part of PCS (you can go through the rest of the scores and find similar patterns).

This topic has been discussed before but that is how the judges are meant to mark and are instructed to do so. It is a discussion that comes up at judging seminars. So blame the system, not the judges because the judges are applying the PCS as instructed. They are marking the elements and PCS separately.

The only PCS which you could drop down on for a poor performance with regards to elements is the Performance/Execution mark. Regardless of a skater having falls, if it doesn't interrupt the flow of the performance and how they move from one element to the next, then it is not meant to reflect in the PCS.

A skater like Chan, regardless of problems with jumps, still can usually fulfill all the PCS requirements because the quality of everything he does is still excellent.

bek
10-03-2011, 03:37 AM
The only PCS which you could drop down on for a poor performance with regards to elements is the Performance/Execution mark. Regardless of a skater having falls, if it doesn't interrupt the flow of the performance and how they move from one element to the next, then it is not meant to reflect in the PCS.

I just don't know how falling multiple times doesn't t hurt the flow of a performance. Maybe for some people it doesn't, but I'd argue that for a lot of people falling multiple times in your program leaves a negative overall impression. I frankly don't care how well you emote/perform after you've fallen that many times. And P/E never gets marked down when he falls multiple times either. I mean seriously 8s and high 7s for multiple falls, really? I'm sorry but thats not well executed. The problem with not marking down for multiple major errors in the PCS, is it makes half the marks already preset. Why have a competition if Chan already has a guaranteed 10 point lead in PCS no matter what he actually does on the ice? And its not just about Patrick either. It was illustrated pretty clearly with Asada/Kim at Worlds in Toyko.

Obviously "magic in a program" is hard to determine. But I know whats not magical and that's falling all over the place. For the sake of this sport they need to start mandating hits on P/E at the very least for error ridden programs.

For me it really does. To be honest as well I don't understand watching both performances how Patrick got higher PCS than Daisuke. Patrick seemed quite stiff to me. I really liked the last footwork section. Maybe the program will grow on me.

Jenna
10-03-2011, 04:09 AM
Liza was fab. :smokin: Very voidy, very diva-ish. I really enjoyed the fast Parts. She's improved in presentation a lot. And those jumps are gorgeous.

Alissa's 3-3 attempt wasn't bad at ALL! It's hard to see the cheat because of the camera angle, but I think she should continue to work at it. The program is a little undercooked for me at this point, but it's still early and I think it has potential and should improve with mileage. She still moves beautifully.

Suzuki was :kickass: She has such great skating skills. I really want to see her back on the Japanese World Team this season.

I really, really, REALLY want to like Chan's program - but it just seems so "meh" to me. I don't think he deserves that high in P/E, CH, IN. Sorry...

reese
10-03-2011, 04:25 AM
Akiko Suzuki http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv0wseaekwo

This girl is a TREASURE.