View Full Version : 2011 Japan Open

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10-02-2011, 07:52 PM
I'm not a fan of Patrick Chan but I am in awe of his skating skills and I think if anyone in the IJS era has deserved 9+ for skating skills, transitions, and choreography, he certainly does.

I think he's better at interpretation than his anti-fans give him credit for, but I would agree that 9s there would be excessive.
Thanks for weighing in, gkelly - I've read enough of your posts to appreciate your knowledge and fairness when it comes to evaluating skating and skaters.

Yes, SS and TR are the areas for which I'm generally fine with Chan's PCS, while IN and P&E are where the judges sometimes overdo it. I realize marks tend to cluster around the SS score, but still... I would need to go over the bullet points for CH again to make an argument about that one, either way. It's besides the point, but I'm not sure CH should be a separate component; I believe most of it can be merged with TR and maybe some parts with IN.

I'll add the caveat that I've not seen Chan skate live, and I realize that certain aspects of his skating can't really be appreciated when watching on TV (or worse, on Youtube). Though that's true for other skaters, too - just maybe not the same aspects... ;)

10-02-2011, 07:57 PM
The lack of videos surprises me. Usually the Japanese fans upload everything so fast. And this was even shown on TV!

The Accordion
10-02-2011, 08:44 PM
I haven't seen all the programs yet - so I cannot comment on this competition. Even when I do see the programs online though I know I won't understand what happened on the ice as well as those who were there.

There are at least 2 posters who were there (midori and crystalice) and they disagree about the "rightness" of the results. The discrepancy is not surprising to any of us I am sure, since not agreeing on results is commonplace - even among the knowledgeable - for a number of reasons.

However, there are a few things bothering me about this thread.

1/There are Patrick fans and Patrick detractors - both seemilngly alike in readiness to defend/detract without having seen the competition.

2/The assumption that we know how ANYONE skated without seeing the actual competition - not only not live (which can make a big difference) but not having seen it at all.

None of us can assume that skaters we know skated the way we know they can or usually do without seeing it. And even if we do see it on TV or online - we won't have nearly as good an understanding as those who were there.

For instance I am a fan of Kozuka and seeing him in person at 4CC in Vancouver - I was totally in awe.

But in that particular competition there was a big difference IMO in his speed and attack in the practice sessions compared to the competition. There were so many people crying foul at the difference between his PCS marks and Patrick's in that competition and had I seen the practice session in person and the competition only on TV I probably would have joined them! But in the competition there WAS way more of a difference than there might have been had Kozuka skated to his potential PCS wise.

3/There seems to be this witch hunt attitude towards skaters with falls winning programs over skaters without falls. The attitidue is that no way should anyone who falls many times win over someone else who doesn't.

But the way things are right now - the simple facts are that

COP is a gathering of points.

Jumps that are completed earn points - even if there is a fall.

PCS - are in place as a part of the judging to allow the skating skills, trainsitions, choreography and interpretation of it to influence the outcome of the competion.

Without PCS - the result would be determined only by difficulty and success of the elements completed within the program.

There are specific deductions for falls. .

It is up to the judges to determine what effect any falls have on the PCS marks. There are no mandatory deductions in PCS for falls.

Sometimes someone can earn enough points for their elements and PCS that even with several falls - they will still beat another skater without falls.

You can disagree with any aspect I have mentioned above
Maybe you think

Jumps where skaters fall should earn no points
There should be bigger deductions for falls
Falls should result in mandatory deductions in PCS
PCS shouldn't count in skating - just judge the stuff that should count - the elements
PCS should be judged better.

If any of the above are your pet peeve - you should let your voices be heard to the ISU. Try to make changes.

It would be great if the skaters would stop getting blamed or villified. It is not their fault and no amount of the humility you wish the skaters would have will change anything. What do you want them to do - go around talking about how stupid the judges are for giving them good marks? I am sure that would work in their favour!

In the meantime - this is the way the system works and until there are changes made to the system - programs with falls -even multiple ones - will beat programs without falls. And it will very often be totally and completely fair.

Skaters fall.
Skaters with new programs they are getting used to may fall more when the program is new.
Skaters who try to add more difficulty to their program - in jumps , footwork and other transitions, probably fall even more.

It happens.

ETA for those of you who wanna cry foul - you should at least say who you thought should have won instead rather than just objecting to the winner being someone with falls.

10-02-2011, 09:04 PM
Liza's LP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK3W_tzkvCs

10-02-2011, 09:18 PM
Akiko Suzuki http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv0wseaekwo

10-02-2011, 09:21 PM
Liza's LP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK3W_tzkvCs

wow, wow, and once again: wow!

i never was a fan of the russian wunderkind, but this is just brilliant, absolutely brilliant, this totally swept my out of my feet.

10-02-2011, 09:22 PM
I think what bugs me is the idea that Chan is somehow responsible for all this and the sole beneficiary.

Remember Tomas Verner's Worlds LP in 2008 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DZDjUkhEIo)? Despite having the lowest TES of the night (heck, his TES was lower than what Buttle earned in the short), he was sixth in PCS, less than nine points behind a squeaky clean/pitch perfect Jeff Buttle (even though he was a two-fall silver medalist in 2005, aftershocks. Staggering, I know).

Or how about Carolina Kostner (who, yes, is definitely the target of a lot of ire thanks to 2008). At the 2010 Olympics, she fell three times, but her PCS were only two points lower than what she scored at Euros, with only one fall.

Program components are thoroughly divorced from the technical elements.

Anyway, now having seen the program in question, I think I like it. While it's an overused piece of music, I think it's actually quite a stretch for Chan. I actually thought that the falls were quite disruptive (particularly the one on the Lutz, the one on the 3A less so and the one on the quad not so much) and his P/E mark seems too high (as does his Interpretation mark). I'd have to go through the bullets to see if it was fair. I actually think it'd be interesting to go through the TES, actually - they seemed a little generous (it's worth noting that depiste three falls - which cost him 8.1 points in GOE, he only lost TES to Gachinsky by 0.14), . But I can see myself falling for the program if/when clean. Love the costume and I enjoy watching him in general, so grain of salt time.

10-02-2011, 09:23 PM
Here is the link you can download the programs from:http://hi.baidu.com/kakuhuohong/blog/item/e3c6767cd072191428388ae9.html
I don't know for how long the videos will remain on youtube

10-02-2011, 09:23 PM
Liza's LP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK3W_tzkvCs

Wonderful! :) Her jumps are just breathtaking and the way she incorporates transitions and musical interpretation into just about every landing is superb as well. :swoon:

10-02-2011, 09:31 PM
Liza's LP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK3W_tzkvCs

Fantastic! Add me to her list of new fans :hat1:

10-02-2011, 09:31 PM
Liza's LP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK3W_tzkvCs

Thanks for that!
I liked parts of the program, but I felt that a lot of her jump entries were quite telegraphed.
Still hate her layback.

10-02-2011, 09:33 PM
She is brilliant

The Accordion
10-02-2011, 09:44 PM
Just saw Takahashi's program so thanks for posting it! I think he is such a wonderful performer with an amazing range in what kinds of music he is able to perform to. I am looking forward to seeing this program later in the season!


10-02-2011, 09:47 PM
Liza was great :cheer: Excellent start to her season.

10-02-2011, 10:00 PM
Here is the link you can download the programs from:http://hi.baidu.com/kakuhuohong/blog/item/e3c6767cd072191428388ae9.html
I don't know for how long the videos will remain on youtube

Hi Miruna! Sorry to be a pain but I don't understand anything, I can see links with skater names on them but I've no idea what to do after clicking on them! This is probably just me being dense...can you tell me/us, pretty please! :)